New Waters S3 | Episode 3

Sinking Ships

In the past few years, we have seen a number of high profile church and faith leaders fall or tap out. Is this happening more frequently or is it simply highlighted because of social media? What factors in church ministry or our cultural environment make leaders more vulnerable to unwise choices? The cost of falling is so high⏤we can't afford not to have this conversation.

In this episode, Vijay Krishnan leads the Season 3 cast through a discussion about vulnerability, the dangers of pedestals, and how to create a healthy sense of mutuality in leadership.

+ Show Notes and Resources

• Elisabeth Kübler-Ross
• Generation Me: Why Today's Young Americans Are More Confident, Assertive, Entitled--and More Miserable Than Ever Before Jean Twenge
• The Rise of Fame, a study by the Journal of Psychosocial Research on Cyberspace
• Psalm 115:1
• A Church Called Tov by Scot McKnight

+ Full Episode Transcript

VIJAY: Hey, well welcome to Episode 3 of New Waters Podcast Season 3. My name is Vijay Krishnan. I am lead pastor at The Well, which is a church in the northern GTA. It used to be called The Upper Room Community Church. But same church, new name. Same old pastor, getting old. My kids... they point out "Touch of Gray" commercials to you when you're watching TV and you know you are entering into what they call middle age. But anyways, that's too much information about me. I am joined by some great people that I am getting to know, some I've known for a while, some I'm getting to know even through these conversations we've been having, really enjoying it. So I would love to just throw it around the horn for them to introduce themselves. First to Alicia to kick it off.

ALICIA: Yeah, my name is Alicia Wilson. I live in Hamilton, Ontario and spend most of my days working with adults with developmental disabilities. I started an organization called Restoration Project and so we teach woodworking to adults with disabilities.

SONIA: And my name is Sonia Friesen and I am from Neepawa, Manitoba. I am currently at Prairie Alliance Church and I'm at one of their multi-sites and the campus pastor there.

ROB: I'm Rob Chartrand. I'm the lead pastor of Crosspoint Church in Edmonton, Alberta.

JOSIE: Hey, I'm Josie Vance. And I work as an organizational health consultant in Edmonton, Alberta.

VIJAY: Well, thanks everyone. Following in the format of our first two episodes, what we're going to do: there are five of us on this conversation, but the way we do it, just for the sake of your listening ears as an audience, is that we cull it down to three of us for sort of the beginning part of the conversation and then we'll call two of us back in to add more insight and thought. But before I send the other two off to the corner, where they have to just listen for a little while, I had a question for you.

What was something⏤an incident you can remember⏤where you went to something that was highly recommended to you and it disappointed you? Or maybe somebody that you really admired from afar and then when you met them it was kind of like... The one that comes to mind for me was everyone kept talking about In-N-Out Burger, In-N-Out Burger. And when I finally went in the United States, I was like, no, not that... I should have just stuck with the out, not the in. It was not great. There's way better burger places. It wasn't life altering, but it was altering. So anybody⏤you don't... maybe not everyone has a story that comes to mind⏤but if you do, I'd love to hear it.

ROB: Well, I'll take you back to my high school days. I didn't have a lot of money for music, but when I heard something I liked, I bought it. And I remember buying an album of these two young male singers who are super talented, good looking, awesome, like green eyes, and they got dance moves, and they blamed it on the rain.

I can't say I'm a Milli Vanilli fan now, although I will bust it out on Spotify once in a while. And then of course, we found out that they were lip syncing, they stole the music. It wasn't really theirs. And that was a scandal back in the day. And I don't know if it shattered my world. But I couldn't believe it, I thought, "How on earth could you do that? And how on earth did they get away with it?" So that's an example from my life.

VIJAY: You said two things there that probably the average millennial maybe on the call doesn't understand. You said you went somewhere to get music. And secondly, you said you bought it. But anyways, that's just for another day.

ROB: I did say Spotify though.

JOSIE: I have a quick story. This isn't so much about like, the bursting of a bubble, but coming into an awareness of something that surprised me at the time. So I am the youngest of four siblings, and my second oldest, my sister, was born deaf. And when I was little I grew up thinking that every family had a deaf person. I had no reason to think otherwise. So I remember being at the playground one day and playing with... I met a friend and she had a sibling there as well. And I was kind of like "So which one's deaf?" And then I learned. I needed to explain what "deaf" meant to this friend of mine that I had just met. And I just remember being astonished that wasn't the norm.

ALICIA: For me, it was my first trip to Niagara Falls. And all this hype had been talking about just this great thing.

JOSIE: I haven't been yet, I want to go.

ALICIA: And I don't know if it was just that like, the dams were closed. But it was like barely trickling and there was no mist. It was just made of the maybe you get a little wet. And being so disappointed that we had taken this long bus ride to go to the falls that were really not spectacular. So I didn't go back for like 10 years and then one time I went back I was like, "Oh, this is what it's supposed to look like."

SONIA: That's hilarious. I don't know if I have a specific example. But I think the older I got, I started to realize that my parents were just humans, if that makes sense. They didn't have the cape that I grew up thinking that they did. They actually feel too. And so that was a, I guess, a bursting of a bubble moment, but also a greater respect too, in that.

VIJAY: That's good. I invite Sonia and Rob in for the three of us to have an initial part of this conversation. And then later on, we'll have Josie and Alicia join us back. As we were preparing for this season, one of the things that I wanted to talk about, I think, is being selfish, that was that I was noticing that was dramatically affecting me, was becoming more aware. Sonia you talked about becoming aware that your parents were sort of ordinary humans.

But in some cases, almost overnight, becoming aware of the frailty and the failings of leaders in our lives. And in the public sector and the private sector and within circles of faith. And then just other places in the world, it feels like we are daily reading about leaders who are stepping down, being asked to step down or making choices in their lives that are bringing down their character, their reputation, or the organizations or the followers that they have with them.

I don't know whether that's just happening more, or whether we're just more aware of it. We're definitely more aware of it. But we're also, I think, in a social media context, there's more coverage to all of it. And then I realized, I was thinking about it, there's more voices reverberating around the stories because more and more people are commenting on them. And I'll be honest, I need people to talk about this with. I need people who are in places of leadership to talk about it with, because I think as a leader, you process it in a certain way.

It recently felt like to me, I don't know if I can handle one more story of someone I trust or respect⏤mostly from a distance... everybody's my mentor through podcasts and whatever, like you feel like you have a relationship with people that you don't even know, and some I'll be honest, have been closer to home⏤and I'm thinking I don't know if I can handle one more. And I would have this instinct of I want to quit my job as a pastor, and run and hide.

So I remember talking to my spiritual director about that. And he was asking me, "Why does it make you want to quit and run and hide?" And I still haven't unpacked all of that. Maybe we'll do that over the next 40 minutes, and you can help me. But there's a topic I guess of the failure and falling of leadership that I feel... I have mixed feelings of discussing. Because there's a vulnerability and sensitivity to it that I feel like we need to respect.

If you don't experience any fear or any trepidation about talking about it, you probably shouldn't be talking about it. Because in a way it's holy ground, because you're talking about people's lives who have been hurt by it. And there's also a way you can talk about it from too far of a distance where you sit in judgment on the situation or the person. So you have to have respect for those who have been hurt directly affected, victimized or abused. I've realized these can be triggering conversations for people who have been victims of abuse or abuse of power.

So I want to even just say that upfront, that I recognize that. And I guess respect for the fact that I'm bound to speak about things that I don't fully understand. I have an incomplete perspective, I have to recognize my limitations. Do I even have the character or humility or wisdom to speak about these things? And the answer is no, not fully. But I guess I hope to grow by it, which is why I want to talk about it.

Yeah, I need to learn. I'll be honest, I'm nervous about this more than I thought I would be. And it's also affected so many people, it's caused so many people to lose their faith. I used to work in marketing. And I say like, if I found out that my VP of Marketing had an affair, I might be upset if I knew them personally. If I didn't, I'd be like, "Oh, what an idiot. Why did she do that? Why did he do that?"

But I'm not going to sit there the next day and go, "I don't know if I believe in marketing anymore. I don't think I can stay in it." You laugh, but in faith contexts, we very quickly go, "Wait do I believe in God anymore?" And so fair or unfair that's just the way it is. We can argue, "Well, people shouldn't see us that way. Or people shouldn't see others that way." But that's where people go and I get it. It's an occupational hazard if you're a leader.

And the hazard isn't just that my own life and well being in relationships and vocation are at risk. That would be bad enough. But I think to realize when you are connected in a web of relationships with people with whom you have influence, your actions dramatically affect them. And part of stewardship of any leadership calling is to say, I'd better take this seriously for the sake of the people that I lead.

At the same time I'm like, as a pastor, and as a Jesus follower, like I said, I want to talk about it, because I feel like I can't process this alone. It's too scary for me. And so I guess my heart for this episode is that not just with the five of us, but that those of you listening will feel like, in part, this conversation has helped you process some of it. We've talked about the fact that social media, to some degree is so limited in its ability to foster true dialogue. There are very few spaces where we can really talk at length about things and allow other people's opinions to influence us. So I'm hoping that this is one of those spaces. And maybe an encouragement to you, as you're listening to say, "Okay, I do need to talk about this."

So despite the fear and trepidation, I want to talk about it. And I guess I want to talk about it in three ways and then I have some questions to open up to you. One is in the arena of grieving, because I feel like a very appropriate response to the failure and fallings of leaders and people in our lives who are influencers is to grieve the loss of that. And not just the falls themselves, but like the grief, of the loss of stability, and things that come with it. And grieving for victims, obviously, first and foremost.

And I was actually thinking probably we don't realize that that's actually what a lot of our reactions are. But if we don't name them as grieving, we don't know we are grieving and that we don't know we need to. Secondly is what is our part in this, because it's easy to sort of villainize or vilify the people or perpetrators. And going, "How could they do that?" But this is like the air we're breathing. There's aspects of the cultures we are creating that are either making this possible or even accelerating it. And I feel like I've been learning about the ways that I'm contributing to it. So let me start with this question: when I say grieving, some of the fallen leaders or situations or the fallout, do you think that's a good term for you? And what other questions does that bring up?

ROB: Yeah, I think grieving is helpful. If I'm talking about just personal loss, then I can grieve that. And I guess I can grieve that for other people. I guess there's different nuances of things that we could say. I thought about lamenting as part of it, too. And that's something very God-directed. And saying, "God, why? How⏤"

VIJAY: Just explain that term, Rob? What that means to you, lament.

ROB: Yeah, well, I mean the biblical idea of lament is to bring something before God as a form of grief to question the disruption in the natural order. And say, "God, it's meant to be this way, but somehow it's this way. And why is that? Or how is that?" And in lament, you're not always going to find the answer, but you're able to bring it before God. And the idea, of course, of biblical lament is⏤I mean, what is it, one third of the Psalms are psalms of lament?⏤is you can bring that before God and He's completely fine with that. In fact, He invites us to come and bring our inner turmoils before Him. So yeah, I think so something like this. Grief is for me... grief is important as well, but I mean, this lament, this godward type of questioning, I think, is important as well.

SONIA: Yeah I do think there is loss. And so we need to acknowledge that. And so if we don't have language or a process in place, then we don't have the space to do it. I do like the starting point of grieving. And I even just wonder of, what are the cultural implications in even our context, or our cultures where we come from, that maybe have limited us to acknowledge that there is a grieving period? Or take it further into lament?

SONIA: Is there something even in our cultural context that maybe would push back on that? So my Hispanic side of culture, I've learned they're very in tune with emotions. And it's okay to say this, even the way that we grieve deaths. It's very on public display like you're in the family in the rawest moments. You don't shy away from that. And so with that said, I do agree grieving is good. And I would just wonder, maybe what are some of the cultural things that limit us from even feeling like we're allowed to?

VIJAY: Yeah, well, let's not do that later on, let's do it now. One of the things that comes to mind that I've noticed in myself and in others is anger is a bit of a go-to emotion. And that's not a bad thing per se. Anger can be a very helpful emotion at times, but I think, noticed in myself, and especially if I can say this with other guys, because many of the guys in my vintage sort of grew up in a context where we were told not to cry, and not to whatever, and so anger...

VIJAY: But even... actually, many women have said to me, "Oh, yeah as a woman we're accused often of using tears or whatever, so we don't." So therefore, I think for men and women, sadness and vulnerability, and loss are not easy to express or identify... and tears. And so anger is actually, quote, a "safer" emotion to go to. It's not safe for anybody else around us, but it's safe for us. And it can be one aspect of grieving, but it becomes almost our one-dimensional way of grieving.

And then social media's immediate response to everything that's happening. One psychologist I was reading said: does social media make us more angry? And he said, he thinks that it does, it was a British psychotherapist who was writing. He said that because we are confronted much more by the opinions of those who disagree with us, we're just more exposed to them, and with those who agree with us, and are angry with us and for us. And so it can whip up anger in us without the time to say, "Why am I angry? It's because I'm so, so sad. And if I got the permission, I would just sit right here and weep." Which Rob, you talk about lament. So I think we just don't know how to do it.

ROB: Outrage seems to be the modus operandi of our culture. It is right away, just shake the fist and cancel. Whereas I wish our posture would be more of grief. You talk about emotion, Vijay. And I think you're exactly right, is that when we say, "Oh, don't be so emotional," what we often mean is, "Oh, don't cry." And we deny the reality that anger is, in fact, an emotion.

So I do a lot of premarital counseling with young couples. And the guy will often say, "Oh, she's so emotional." And I say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, you're just as emotional. You're an angry guy. It's just a different type of emotion." So I think we need to embrace sorrow and lament and cut our boils with pottery and throw ashes on our heads a little bit more and get used to that. I don't know where the stoic influences come in our culture from, I can't pinpoint them, but they are definitely there. I wish we would cry a little bit more about this.

SONIA: I resonate with what you're both saying here. And I think we've dignified anger, in a sense. We've placed it in an elevation where it feels justified. And I do think there's a time and it's okay to be angry. But when we place it much higher than actually the process of processing why we're angry, I think that's where the danger lies. Because you can stay angry your whole life, and find the right people to tell you that it's okay. But actually, what is healthy is to process where that's coming from. It's secondary, and just coming down to the root of where that's coming from. And as we think of fallen leaders, and apart from where we're at, personally. How do we navigate better health in this area, personally. It starts with us.

VIJAY: Yeah, it's good.

ROB: Just quickly, for the sake of our listeners, we are not saying that anger is an inappropriate response. We're just saying it's not the only response. Because especially when there's victimization taking place, we don't want to minimize that in any way. And yes, we should be outraged about some of those things that have been happening.

VIJAY: Yeah. And I think what the other emotions of grief allow us to do is they... Because if we're not angry about anything that's just a clue something's not right within us as well. Because we should be angry about things where there are victims involved or whatever, rather than anger at our own sort of inconveniences or whatever, where we have misplaced anger. But anger when we allow the... Like, if I can say like the other dimensions of grief to come as companions to anger, then it'll probably mean that our anger or our zeal or our desire to see something change will be directed in a good and healthy way.

VIJAY: Because, for example if I allow sadness and the sense of loss to come in, along with my anger, then I'm probably going to be able to show compassion for those who have been hurt and who have suffered loss even more than I have. So that my anger doesn't cause me to miss the fact that there are victims. Just by way of transition, I think one of the⏤into the second phase of this that I'd love to talk about⏤this idea, Elisabeth Kübler-Ross was sort of the person who developed this idea. She had the five stages of grief. And then her research partner added a sixth one.

She actually developed them as she observed terminally ill patients as they were coming close to death, how they moved through the stages of denial, then anger, then bargaining, then depression, then acceptance. And then he added a sixth one, finding meaning. I've seen bargaining in this a little bit where people are either angry at the fallen leaders, or they're angry at the people who are calling out the fallen leaders. I've seen that. People who are angry at Christian publications, who are writing about these things. They're angry at congregants who were calling out indiscretions and things like that.

And then the bargaining comes to something we talked about in a previous episode⏤an oversimplified explanation for why this happened: "Oh, well, this person was clearly a narcissist," or "They were rotten to the core." "We knew there was problems with this." "Oh, I always knew about that person, or that church or whatever." That's a form of bargaining, because it's a way of... the bargaining is this idea of negotiating a way to come to terms with that isn't actually acceptance.

ROB: So what I don't think you're saying is that bargaining is excluded. What you're saying is that people stop at bargaining. And that's it. Or some people skip over bargaining, because you have to go through bargaining to get to depression. There's a phase you're in. For some people, that's a long period of time. For some people, they can go through that very quickly. But bargaining is still there.

I mean, when you think of lament, there is a certain amount of bargaining that's involved in that. "God, why do the nations plot in vain?" But you're bargaining with God⏤bargaining with Him as opposed to throwing it at someone else. So there is an important part of that. But I think it's important to understand, what is bargaining? What we're doing is we are trying to make sense of the disruptive disorder that is there.

So on psychological terms, as we're dealing with the cognitive dissonance in our mind, we're trying to resolve it almost too quickly⏤by simplifying it, and minimalizing it. But sometimes we need to just rest, sit in it and stay in it, in this area of bargaining. So there's this disruptive disorder in the universe. Because wisdom would say, the Book of Proverbs would say, wisdom is... the world has been designed according to God's order. His very wisdom is woven into the fabric of the universe. And when that gets disrupted something inside of us goes, "Oh, this is not right." And so as human beings, it's very natural for us to try and well, bargain.

VIJAY: And that's important. And that's good, Rob. So I think that's part of what I wanted this episode to be was a more robust bargaining with it. Because I hear people say like, "Well, everyone's a sinner." Well, yes, that's true. And that's actually an important part of the conversation to recognize. But that can't be, "Hey, we need to just accept this because everyone's a sinner." It's like, no, no there's more to that.

ROB: Exactly. Totally.

VIJAY: Or that person was a narcissist, okay, maybe. Like we're all narcissists. We struggle with that. So the bargaining is actually part of what this conversation is about, I guess. So that's a good flex. What are the antecedent behaviours or circumstances that we would say aren't in and of themselves bad, immoral, sinister, toxic or intentional, but which might create space for toxicity, covering up, abuse or manipulation to come in? That's part of us reflecting on ourselves is what are things that create space for this to happen that in and of themselves don't look terrible? More to the point, how do you know if you're an individual or a community that might be susceptible to falling, failing or sinking?

ROB: In all of this, there are personal responsibilities that need to be taken, and there are corporate responsibilities that need to be taken. And I think none of us would deny... We live in a day where we're really calling out systemic problems, systemic structures and whatnot. And I think that's appropriate, I think we need to talk about the systemic structures that are in place that are contributing to something like this.

But also we need to talk about individual problems that are leading towards this. And I mean, the simple basic one is we are at root sinful people. Sin has a controlling, consuming power in people. We can't deny that. But I want to talk about something structural. I'm concerned, I'm greatly concerned about our elevation of the pursuit of platform in our culture. And I think it's magnified by social media. Everyone wants to be famous. I think it's Twenge, in her "Generation Me" book talks about it. I'm going to botch the statistics, but they looked at high school students, say, 30 years ago, how many of them wanted to be famous, it was something like 6 or 7%. They asked high school students just within the last decade, how many of them strive to be famous? Over 50%.

VIJAY: Yeah, it was that Cyberspace journal... did a study over 20 years, and they said rank fame as a value, and it was 15 to 20 years ago. And now it's number one amongst 9- to 11-year-olds.

ROB: Yeah, so everyone wants to be famous. And we are not immune, in leadership. And the platform, the desire for platform and fame and to be noticed and to be recognized is an undercurrent in so much of our leadership. You need to publish, you need to get a website, you need to get a blog, you need to get your sermons online. And it's relentless. And I think that platform can be a gateway drug to our three greatest killers: money, sex and power, three huge controlling devices in our world.

And platform is just a way that gets us towards that. So I'm deeply concerned about that. And I don't know what to do. We put leaders on pedestals that they weren't meant to be on. And as a result, Jesus is no longer the hero in our story. Our leaders are heroes in our stories. And when we get on these platforms, it's like a drug. And in many ways, we start to believe our own press.

And here's the thing is, when you're in those positions, you are not just in power. In many ways you are powerless. You are controlled by that position, it puts you in an environment where your decisions are actually quite limited. And even your decision to be able to come out or your decision to be able to talk honestly, with people. I mean, that's not to justify the decisions of leaders and the things that they've done. But it is a difficult position to be put in and to try and maintain integrity in our day and age. So now I've riffed enough on that, but I'll open up to you guys and get your feedback on that.

SONIA: I like that concept of platform and even using the social media language of followers. And when you become so focused on how many followers you have, that you forget to follow Jesus. I love Psalm 115:1 where it says, "Not to us, oh, Lord. Not to us, but for your glory, because of your unfailing love and faithfulness." And I think that's where a blind spot could be. And maybe you could take the approach well they wanted it. Maybe they did, maybe, but we as a people support that or don't too in the way that we interact with them. We also carry a part there where you can just think that someone automatically signed up for this. But I believe that they probably weren't like, you and I. Are we just after followers? Or who are we following?

VIJAY: Yeah, that's interesting. Rob talked about the pursuit of platform. But then there are we who like and follow and subscribe and whatever. And of course, there's aspects of that there's nothing wrong with those things. But we just recognize we're all a part of this thing that we're not totally in control of. One of the books that I've been reading recently, this has been helping me think through this a lot in an in-depth way, is by Scot McKnight. It's called the Church Called Tov, and it's from the Hebrew word Tov, apparently. I believe him, I have never studied Hebrew. So I'm just going to take his word for it, it means good. Goodness.

And he referenced a study in there. And I wish I had the background for it. He said that they did a study with people that the more power they have, the more it affects the part of their brain that is able to mirror when they're in relationships. And mirroring is a key brain function that supports empathy. So if you think about the ability to hear what the other person is saying, to put yourself in their shoes, and whatever, that our brain actually has some functionality that enables that. That opens the door for empathy.

He said, the more they studied... They did brain power and people like the more power you have, the more that part of your brain gets impaired, which is crazy to think about. That actually what got you into power may be one of the very things that gets diminished over time, the more power you have. Your ability to relate to people, your ability to speak to where they're at, your ability to understand them can actually put you into positions of influence and power that diminish your ability to keep doing that.

And when you begin to lose empathy, then you are going to use people. That's just almost inevitable. Or they become either the villains or the heroes in the story about you. Man I totally have fallen victim to that. You cannot help but think of success in terms of how many people are coming to church or as we went online, Hey, have you lost... How many people are tuning into your weekly services? Have you lost congregants? Are they coming back? What's the finances at?" All of these things that are all measures of success that can relate to this idea.

It is a given that these are good things that you as a leader should be pursuing. It's a given. They're not questioned. And one of the questions I had... I had a session with my spiritual director recently, where we were processing some of this. And I said, "It's almost to the point now where I would say, I am now afraid if I get asked to speak somewhere, or whatever, anything that I have now... I don't want any kind of..."

And I'm not saying that as a virtue. I just mean, it's been a visceral reaction. And I've noticed it because it's so opposite to what I normally felt like and wanted. And he said, "Why wouldn't we be naturally afraid of those things." Those are things to be feared. Because he said, "To some degree people are going to ask you to fill the thing that keeps their machine going, because they're building a conference, or they're running a program, or they're doing... And they want people and they want speakers, and they want names and they want..." So he said, "It's almost like you just ending up used up in the process of it." And so this has been just like, kind of a shift for me going, "Whoa, maybe everything that I thought was so good and valuable is actually borderline evil." I know it's an overreaction, but I guess I'm just letting you in under the hood of what's been going on in my head lately.

ROB: Yeah. And I think in all of that we are indirectly complicit. We might not be directly complicit to say this such and such pastor and this such and such church, I've never met, and I maybe listen to his podcast once. But just creating this culture within Christendom, of being known, and making our name great instead of Jesus. And we would never say that. But it is so subtle, and it's such an undercurrent. But I want to just direct back to the other side of things, and just talk about the individual personal responsibility for ourselves, either in avoiding this or what we can do in our own little contexts and our own churches.

VIJAY: And you mean, in terms of to prevent this Rob, or like, proactively?

ROB: Yeah, yeah preventative.

VIJAY: Yeah. So that's where I want to go next. But I guess before we do that, on the question of individuals. What is it in our own lives that... How do we know whether we're at risk to this? And at risk, I mean, by maybe there won't be a colossal public failure in my life or your life. But there's a risk of the pursuit and the way we envision ourselves as people and leaders not being good. What are some of the things personally that create space for this? We talked about corporately, in terms of cultures of fame and prominence or whatever. But individually what are the weaknesses, what are the antecedent behaviours or conditions that create a home for something like this to take over in our lives, that lead to maybe toxic kinds of leadership behaviours or abusive or manipulative kinds of ways of dealing with other people?

ROB: Yeah, and we want to be careful, we're explaining this, but we're not justifying the behaviour. But we're explaining it.

VIJAY: Absolutely. Absolutely. And my purpose is saying, it won't do to say, "Oh, that person was just bad. And that's why they did it." If we're not reflective, we won't see it in ourselves, like I said, because nobody plans to be that way. So that's my lens, that's good. Thank you for that.

ROB: And I think it's easy for us to look at some of these leaders and say they were either good or bad. And therefore we can't read their books anymore. Or therefore, all of their ministry that they did up to that point is null and void. That people are neither just good or neither just bad. But we're actually very, very nuanced. And again, that's not to justify what they did. But it is to say that some people can do really, really good things for God and have a genuine heart in that, and yet still be very, very broken.

If there's trauma, if there's brokenness, if there's unforgiveness, if there's something deeply broken, rooted in somebody's life, the worst thing you can do is put them in a position of absolute power and without accountability. Because we train church planters, and my church planting training background is problems become cracks, and then they become fissures. The moment stress is introduced into your life, those little problems are suddenly magnified. They are stretched and stretched until you're really broken. So you've got to deal with some of those issues, those deep-seated issues in your life if you're going to be put into a position of the spotlight or leadership.

VIJAY: Yeah. So what are the indicators in our own lives or in the lives of others that there is brokenness? Because I think that assume self-awareness. And we don't have that always. So how do we see that?

SONIA: Can I say denial? Just a simple check? It can help us gauge where we're at. Even just individually. Do we deny that we're susceptible to this? Or do we deny that others are susceptible to this? Because if there's still denial, we can't progress. If we can't sit with it, and come to terms with we are flesh. And we can't keep denying it, that this is a pattern.

SONIA: Again, like I said, at the beginning, as I grew up, and found out that my parents were just human beings, I'm a human being too. And so I think just even that initial check if even as we're processing this, if there's still thoughts that if we think of a trusted person and say, "Oh, no, they never would..." Can we start to remove and surrender denial? And we're safe with Jesus in processing it. We've been talking about anchors throughout here. Where are the areas that we aren't anchoring? I think that's what will expose these behaviours.

VIJAY: Yeah, as I've been reflecting on this, there's two kinds of theological persuasion that can keep us from looking at this. And to some degree, even our denomination, the Christian & Missionary Alliance. This is a part of what has made us up, is you can have a Protestant, or think about like, Luther's sort of worm theology, "I'm a sinner"... whatever. But that can be sort of, yes, I'm a sinner saved by grace and always be a sinner. That can sometimes be an excuse not to actually say, yes, and how are you going to grow? How is that actually going to change in your life?

VIJAY: And I don't mean moral behaviour. I mean how does brokenness get actually healed? Yes, you're a sinner, but part of salvation is to turn you into a new person. And then there's also in the charismatic kind of tradition, this idea that if I just get a touch from the Spirit, and I've got Jesus, I'll be healed. And then I can move on. Which maybe, not for everybody, but for some people, bypasses the hard work of letting the Spirit search the deep things. You know, Psalm 139, "Test me and see if there's any anxious or offensive way, in me."

Two resources that have been really helpful for me: one was Peters Scazzero's book "Emotionally Healthy Spirituality." And it begins with this premise of saying, we cannot say we are spiritually mature if we are emotionally immature. And Rob, that's that whole thing about brokenness. It's saying do we understand the brokenness in us? And how does Christ begin to come in? And if I don't see, Sonia, like you said, If I'm denying that there is brokenness in me, regardless of the fact that I've been saved, and whatever, that needs to be healed, and that's part of what Jesus wants to save me from is that thing or those things.

I think you're right is the beginning point is realizing that in me and that like you said, Rob, if I'm not careful, I better not be saying yes to things that will put a pressure or a stress on the cracks in me, without an equal or greater attention to those things being healed and mended. So am I attending as much to my character, as I am to increasing my platform? What's the ratio there? That's an important conversation.

ROB: A side conversation and I don't know how far we want to go down... There is a lot of those who have tremendous talent, creative, in communicating or in the arts. There is a large number of them that also have tremendous brokenness. And so how we see talent and our initial responses, let's put it up here on a platform. How do we navigate the tension between these two things? Some of our greatest contributors in the art world did have a lot of serious brokenness in their lives. I don't have an answer for that. But it is a reality that we face, that even church communicators, a lot of whom are tremendously talented are also deeply broken.

VIJAY: Well, let's go to the third part of our conversation because I think maybe we can get at some of that is⏤what our habitses... Habitses, habitses. I sound like the⏤

ROB: Hobbitses.

VIJAY: Hobbitses, sound like Gollum. What are habits, practices and approaches to ministry and leadership and the way we function in our various communities that can help prevent or change or shift us in a new way of being both personally or corporately, however you want to talk about those? What are some things in your own life that have helped you deal with some of the brokenness in you, as a leader?

SONIA: We talked last episode about simplicity, just letting Jesus heal the wounds of identity or the gaps. And the sense is, as I sit there with his love, and know that I'm loved, just a posture of personally, to allow my soul and my being to be filled with His love. Out of that, then I feel like my heart is softer to want to be vulnerable. Because I know I'm safe, I don't need to go find it. I do need to go find it for accountability. But my motivation for doing that is not just a checklist. It's I'm safe enough with you, Jesus.

And because of that I want to grow, I want to continue to be who You've called me to be. And that's in the mess of life, because I'm not coming at a place that I've arrived. But I find that act and that posture of really understanding how God champions for us, and how He's for us. How really, his love isn't limited on my best day or on my growth day.

And through that, having that heart just softened to want to do those things. Because sometimes we may not feel like it. Sometimes we just don't want to process. Sometimes we're exhausted. But because I know that I'm secure in him, then it prompts me to want to seek out the community. And so personally, I do meet as well, with someone for accountability, asks me the questions, allows me to draw me into, "Hey, where are my areas of weakness that I do know."

And I still have many to discover too. But knowing that I still come to a place where it's safe. And I'll even say that it's not even just enough to say, or expose or be vulnerable. It's setting up boundaries then with that. Because I can say something. But if I don't have the right community to help me channel it, to protect that heart, then I can just say it, but that's not enough.

ROB: Yeah, you touch on something, I think that's so critical is that community, that's a gray space community, that's a gospel community. Because I think without that, we are not going to be vulnerable. We're not going to truly come out and say, "This is who I am. And this is what I'm wrestling with." I think it's shame that keeps so many leaders who are on the journey towards self-destruction from coming out and being honest, is they fear losing their jobs, or they fear being rejected.

Because when leaders get together, what do they talk about? Well, how many people are in your church? What book have you published? Oh, what's your blog like? Or what's your plans next year for your church and whatnot? And if somebody just suddenly pipes up and says, "Hey, guys, I really need to talk about something. I'm really, really struggling with self-hatred. Or, I've totally been beating up on some of my staff members." Crickets. Like nobody's going to want to talk about that. So if you're always thumping your chest, and you're always posturing, that's not a grace-filled community. In many ways that is a pharisaical type of community, where the merit that you... or the value you receive from that community is based on your merits⏤and that's a pharisaical community.

SONIA: I love that that goes for both the fallen leader and the victim. Because the victim can feel shame to go to the community and say this happened. And so I love that that goes both ways. It doesn't matter. And I also love also that maybe some of you listening might say, "How do I get that community?" Or, "I don't have that, like I long for it." And so I think, how do I become that community for people? How do I grow in health?

Because in a world that craves authenticity and vulnerability, sometimes we can be defeated by saying, "I don't have anyone around me." And maybe that is true. Maybe that is. But we sometimes forget that we can grow to be that too. We're actually called to do that for others as well. And so I think it's not just a give or take, it's both. But again, I love that that model works for both the fallen leader or the victim.

ROB: Yeah, so just as we are complicit in creating a community that finds value and meaning in platform, we can also be complicit in creating a community that values grace and authenticity and humility and simplicity and Christ-centeredness.

VIJAY: And demands it from our leaders and celebrates it when it comes, in the sense of... I want to say two quick things that I just want people to hear. One is what was already said, which is vulnerability. We have to, as leaders, be willing to be vulnerable. People will not be more vulnerable than the permission we give, let's say, from the front of the room. Or whatever role you have. And because it's not to say no platform is good, we should shy away from it. Leadership and power in and of themselves are bad. That's where our culture has gone. Is saying, all power is bad. It's like no, Jesus had power. He just used it in the service of others all the time. That's what He did. That's what humility is, is using power in the service of others.

So I had a teaching pastor, taught with me 50% of the time in this last year and a half. And I'm not telling any tales out of school because he preached his way through this. He eventually resigned from our church, and was going through a mental health struggle. Was open with the church about it from the pulpit, and with our staff and our board. What it did was it gave such permission in the church for other people to say, "I'm struggling too, I feel that."

It just gave permission to say, "Oh, you're like..." Even if people weren't struggling with mental health in the congregation, they were just saying, "We've never heard a pastor say anything like this." I was open about how it was hurting me just to watch him and to walk with him. And then there was point, one sermon he preached, and I got some people saying, "Wow, that's a lot. If a pastor is struggling that way..."

But I had so many people say, "Oh thank you, thank you like, this is just telling me, I can still be a faithful follower of Jesus, while I'm still struggling with all these things. And I doubt." And it was so good for my own soul, and it left our church in a healthier place. He actually led us into... And so when he left our staff team, he actually decided to leave the ministry, they're still a part of our church, which is beautiful. We didn't have to lose the relationships, which was just testimony to part of it, and really a credit to the way he handled it.

But he left a mark on us as a team saying, this is what it means to be vulnerable in community and still trust Jesus and trust each other. So that's one. And secondly, we have to stop prioritizing content in our models of discipleship over the character and the spiritual formation of the leaders. That if we are inviting leaders in who are skilled and capable at something, but do not have the emotional maturity to handle it, we owe it to them to be developing, and helping them grow in maturity, just as we are benefiting from their gifting.

And it's not that yes, everything needs to be sorted out before you can lead. Because that wasn't Jesus' model, he gathered his disciples, and he sent them out. But there probably is a way that we evaluate whether someone's ready for leadership that needs to include, do they understand their inner life? Do they understand their soft spots or weak spots, like you said, Sonia, or are they in denial still? So those are kind of two final things that I wanted to mention. I want to just open up the mics for Josie and Alicia to come in. And whatever you want to add to this, questions, you have things you want to amen, or resound or things you want to disagree with, or whatever, please do that.

ALICIA: Yeah, I feel like there's so much that we could comment on. And it's such an important conversation. I think there's kind of two things that stuck out as we were talking, and I really like the movement of the language from our sin to our brokenness. I think it's important to acknowledge our sin. And I think we need to bring that before God. But I think in brokenness, it changes the language of that we're actually looking to heal, and that we're actually looking to become more whole people, and that we actually have a responsibility for that healing, to take that ownership of "Where is my brokenness? And how is that brokenness going to hurt someone else?"

But creating that space that we can be open and vulnerable, in a public way, as leaders. And I think that in a lot of ways we've failed. That it's very much kind of you're taught you have to put a guard up between you and those you lead. And I think that's just created such a toxic environment. And also, I think a lot of young leaders just feel like there's no way I can live up to that. So why would I even bother trying? Or they enter into ministry and just realize I'm alone in this how do I navigate through that brokenness?

ROB: How dare Paul the Apostle talk about his thorn in the flesh, his inward burning? And how dare Jesus lament in the garden? What kind of leaders are they?

ALICIA: Because we're all broken, and we all have to figure out how to lead out of that brokenness, or in spite of that brokenness.

VIJAY: And the invitation to lead actually can help. If we're doing it in the right way and the community is healthy, it actually becomes a thing that helps us grow. Staying away from community or places of leadership or whatever, actually could be staying away from a kind of accountability and community and intimacy with each other and God that actually is a missing piece in our healing journey. Josie.

JOSIE: I have so many thoughts going through my head right now. But I think, and in listening I would just affirm what I heard the group saying and conversing about. I think there is a dynamic of hero worship that is at play in the world of Christian leadership that goes beyond loyalty. Like the virtue of loyalty and the virtue I would say of honouring our leaders. I see that there's way too often, in my view anyway, this hero-izing of leaders, and where they become personas on a pedestal. And then before you know it, in weird ways, we've got pastors in their own pulpits who are mimicking the way this person dresses and doing the same hand gestures and using the same phrases.

And there's something about that, that's just... What is the posture of our leaders and our pastors in the church world, and what is the pressure that they are under, to do more, to be more, to shine more brightly, to have more followers. There's a lot of pressure there to perform. And I would say I have seen over years in different contexts, this aspiration to be popular, rather than to be purposeful and mission-focused and to serve with humility.

And as Vijay, you noted, the posture that Jesus has to use his influence to serve others. So I'm concerned about that. And I put that out there, because I'm not so sure what to do about it. Yet, we've heard good thoughts on accountability matters. And I would also just affirm the whole idea of the congregation demanding almost that pastors and leaders are accountable to that, and being open, safely open, about you know what's going on, on the inside. So that people don't get caught up in situations or find themselves in situations that they never would have imagined they would end up in.

Pedestals are dangerous places. And then on the other end of it, too what do we do when something bad happens? And how does the church respond to that, and how do individuals. I identify with your struggle and the vulnerability with which you approach this topic in bringing it to us, there's an inner wrestle. And I'm wrestling that out as well. I'm glad that we're talking about this. How do I get over my own sense of jadedness? How do I continue to trust those who are influencing me? What is the... Self-preservation might be my go-to? Not the best, I don't think. So, yeah, I'm going to need your help with that.

ALICIA: Is part of the vulnerability or accountability that within our congregations and within our capacities as leaders that we actually have to acknowledge what our capacity is. That we can't be everything to everyone. And I think sometimes that there's this huge pressure of this expectation, that we have to be all of these things. And we just don't have that capacity. And so then we get... Then you feel like, "Oh, I have to actually hide that I don't have this capacity." And the second we start hiding in any way, it becomes easier to, "Well, I'm just doing this so that I can fulfill this requirement." And so we use that capacity issue as justification to indulge.

VIJAY: Yeah. And so I'd like to, if we can just spend the last few minutes of this episode just wrestling with that question that Josie posed to us a bit. What do we do with the fact that this is happening or say this has happened in a context close to us? Or maybe some of you are listening and it's like happened in your backyard?

I think one of the things I am wrestling with and realizing is it is about unleashing the body of Christ to be able to function in its fullest, healthiest form. And here's what I mean by that, practically speaking: one of the greatest safeguards a leader can have beyond just say accountability for any negative patterns is that they live in a community where they themselves are receiving the benefits of being in submitted relationships to each other.

Alicia, you talked about when we put a separation or a barrier between the leader and the people, we're not only putting the leader up on a pedestal, we're cutting them off from the kind of community that they actually need, in a kind of a mutuality thing. And that speaks to both vulnerability say from a platform or whatever. But it also... I think, if I'm in a community for a long period of time, like we leave communities too quickly. And so people don't get to know us long enough to see our shortcomings and failures. We don't have friendships that are close enough to call us out on those things. And therefore we don't get the benefit of what actually we need in community.

And we need to be communities of people that are willing to call each other out on the things that we see that are not good in each other's lives. Without being a judgmental culture, but one that loves enough to say, "Hey, I don't want this to hurt you." As leaders, if we are not participating in the health and life of the community in the same way that we would invite others to in our community, probably something's wrong there. And so I think churches and organizations need to hold their leaders accountable to what are you doing for cultivating authentic relationships in your own circles.

Because I've heard leaders say, "Oh, you can't be friends with people in your church. And you can't be whatever." And I'm like, something's not right with that, that is messed up. And I come by it honestly, I guess, because I was part of the church before I became the pastor. So we already had those friendships in place. And I understand there's weirdness to it. But we've got to get over that somehow. Because all that does is create the greater separation between pastor and congregants and whatever.

ALICIA: There's only weirdness though, if you're trying to hide something.

VIJAY: Well yeah, exactly. Or people expect you to hide, they don't want to know your real stuff. So that's one thing that comes to mind. But what else?

ROB: Well, and just to say, yes, the church is responsible for creating that. But so are we, as leaders. I mean it's not natural, I think, given our current cultural environment, for... and I mean, the Christian cultural environment, for the church to feel comfortable addressing sins in their pastors, or calling out things that are going on. Because your pastor is the most theologically educated, there's more at stake if they leave. There's all these different power dynamics that make it really difficult. So the only way you can do that is to do what Jesus did, which is to leave heaven, and to incarnate and go and be with us.

So surrender and humility, and all of those things. And I think it's required of us as leaders to do exactly that same thing, to follow the pattern of Jesus, to enter into everyone's world, and to say, "I give you permission." And to say to our board, "I'm empowering you to call me out, I'm empowering you to hold me accountable." And to say that to the community of faith, as well, "Hey, I'm going to be struggling sometimes."

I think anyone listening to it is going to go, "Oh I got to fix that in my life, or I got to..." There's these nuances of things we're all going to be working on after this conversation. And with my staff team, when they join the team, a new staff member, I say, "I understand you're not going to have it all figured out. And you're going to make mistakes. And this is an environment where it's okay to make mistakes. I mean, don't make the same mistakes all the time. Obviously, we want you to get better. But it's okay to make mistakes. And I want you to know, I will disappoint you. Hands down, I am going to disappoint you, I'm not going to be this person that you expected. I've got these idiosyncrasies, and these peccadilloes and these problems, and I want you to know that as well."

And I think that's important. I think it's important that people know, your pastor will disappoint you. Your pastor will make mistakes. He is human. We're called to a higher account. Scripture is very clear on that. I mean, anyone who demands to be a teacher, you're going to be in higher account, you held to a higher level of accountability. But it doesn't mean that we're any less broken than anybody else, or any more broken than anybody else. We have the same needs as everyone else. So anyway, I think it's our responsibility as well to create that environment.

VIJAY: Can I also just say, I think that as leaders or pastors, board members, whatever, we have to allow people to call out things they see in us or in the community that they don't like, even if they do it in a broken way. It's easy for us to write off feedback that comes because we don't think it came in the right way. Or we don't think it came from a valued, legitimate source. And I would say as I reflect back on the difficult conversations I had that people brought to my attention, my instinctive reaction was defensiveness.

And there were certain people whose opinion of me at our church I trusted and others I didn't. And that's just wrong. And I realized they were calling out, maybe in a broken way. But, so I'm broken too. They're calling out things that are true. And I need to be able to say... And so I would say, as pastors more it's who are we listening to? How are we creating avenues for people in our community to tell us what they're concerned about and what they see and what they're experiencing? And knowing that if you don't do anything, the default is that they won't come out. The default is the power dynamic that you want to say doesn't exist, but it does exist. And it just won't come unless you actively invite it.

ROB: So evaluate the content, but not the intent. Because you don't know the intent of the person. You don't know where the... But every time somebody brings something to you, bring it before the Lord and say, "Lord, is this person right? What can I learn from this?" No matter how broken they are, love that.

VIJAY: Bring it to your spouse, bring it to trusted friends, bring it to other leaders and say, "Hey, sift through, even if there's only 5% that's true. What do you think's true?"

SONIA: I was going to say, I wonder, also just the element of hope in this. Because this can be disheartening. And leave many, Josie, you mentioned like, our own jadedness with it. How do we move forward? How do we hold the tension of grief and hope? Just because we're grieving doesn't mean we've let go of hope. And so I wonder, even in these conversations we hear the stories of fallen people, but how also, do we tell the stories of reconciliation?

How do we also make sure that we are speaking the truth as well, that doesn't diminish what has happened. But we also have a God who is working and who is healing. And I know that for me personally, when it can be discouraging, and yeah, trusted people fall. I myself fall. But then when I'm reminded of the bigger picture, and seeing, "Hey, this is possible, even in the most broken circumstance, Jesus, You are who You say You are."

I come from a place where I was sexually harassed within the C&MA by a trusted leader. And so I come from that perspective of how did the church handle that. My lens is viewed from that. And my story, what I love about it, is that people had things in place. And you don't always hear that. I had to come forward, not because I wanted to, but because God wouldn't leave me at rest to stay silent, for the sake of others, to have a voice. And when I did it, it wasn't, "Oh, man but we really know that this leader is very charismatic, very followed. This has financial implications of support, this has all these things."

Instead, the conversation was, "I'm so sorry that that happened." That was the reaction immediately. "I'm so sorry that that happened." What I love about the story of God doing in me is I could have been one that said no way I'm going into ministry. If that's what I get, there's no way. And what helped me too is sitting in that love of God, knowing letting Him heal the identity, letting Him heal the wounds.

And also knowing man, if You can do this for me, why can't... How can I not be a part of this? I love that I can look back, I'm in that stage that I can look back at it. And I remember even just God's... Just His perfect way that He reconciles. I remember, I was in a season where we were going to a district prayer retreat. And at this point, I'm married, my maiden name is concealed. And so I figured nobody will know the story.

And I don't even know why had that thought because it had been a little a while, and I had a dream before going to this district retreat. And I saw a person approaching me, and they were going to talk about it. And I was like, that is so weird. It's been a while. And I get to this district retreat. And guess what? One of the guest speakers is this person. And I'm like, "Shoot, something's going to happen." But God had prepared my heart. And at that moment, it was like shoot are we going to... what's going on?

And I remember in one of the sessions, there was one spot open next to me. And I immediately knew this leader is going to come in late, and they're going to end up sitting there. And that's exactly what happened. They came in and they sat there. And I was like, but the good thing is, and I'm thinking all of the ways like should I go to the bathroom, how do I avoid this?

I don't even know the implications. And I remember we're sitting there and we're singing the song and there's no way I can connect with this song at this point because I'm overthinking everything. And they just tapped me on the shoulder, and they said, "Listen, this is going to be really weird. But as I'm praying, I know that you're the person who walked through this with this leader." And they said, "I'm just really unsettled. Because God just has prepared my heart that I would meet you one day, and be able to deliver the words from his mouth that I'm sorry this happened to you. And he just wants continue to bring healing."

And what I love about that is, that's the level of healing that God wants to bring to these situations. The ones that we think are so far gone. If we lose hope in our brokenness, then we can't move forward. But that is the God we get to celebrate in this. And that doesn't diminish what happens. But it also doesn't diminish who God is.

And as we anchor ourselves in Him, as we anchor ourselves and saying, "Hey, we're going to put these things in place." I'm sensitive that not everyone's story is like that. And so I'm sensitive that there are a lot of gaps that still do need to take place. And I say this, I'm very gracious to the systems in place. Because now being on this end, I get it. I get it. There's things that you just can't plan for.

And so I was able to be gracious on the leaders. And was it perfect? No, by any means. But at the same time, there's nothing that God can't heal. It is cool to be on this end of the journey, and to really just highlight that God actually wants to heal those areas for us to keep going, for us to continue to push forward for health. Because that's the business we're in. We get to proclaim of His goodness and greatness in this and yes, the falling can really be rock bottom. But when He restores He restores with honour. And that's available for all of us. Regardless if we are a fallen leader or victim of the situations. That's still the same God. We get to serve and we serve out of that place calling people and, man, there's so much good. But He is redemptive.

VIJAY: That's amazing, Sonia, thank you. That's a beautiful place to end. Thank you for just sharing that with us. And I'm sure there's a lot of people listening to for whom that is either if that's their own experience that is helpful, but also just to all of us to anchor us in hope in our God who is constantly doing this.

JOSIE: Thank you.

VIJAY: Guys, thank you so much for your honesty in this conversation and leaning in and just praying that this is a continuing work and spurs us on in our own spheres of influence, but that this has been a blessing and an encouragement to all of you listening. So thanks. God bless.