New Waters S3 | Episode 5

New Waters Season 03 Episode 05 truth and the anchor of scripture.jpg

Truth and the Anchor of Scripture

The Bible may be too obvious of an anchor point when we talk about what keeps us grounded as Christians. However, while some have a rich relationship with Scripture, many people do not feel at ease reading the Bible for themselves. In recent times, perhaps surprisingly, Bible reading was at an all-time low thanks to the pandemic. So, how do we actually talk about the importance of Scripture in the Christian life today?

In this episode of the New Waters podcast, Sonia leads the cast through an animated conversation about how to discover and remember the complexity and richness of the Christian Bible. The cast discuss questions like how can Scripture be considered accessible to everyone, and what is the value and role of trained teachers? Together they home in on our responsibility as leaders to help people build an appetite for an experiential, rich engagement with God’s Word.

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+ Transcript

SONIA: Well, welcome back to Season Three of the New Waters podcast, and we are on Episode 5. And we've enjoyed having this space as we talk about navigating faith in a sea of change. I find the irony of change, is that change never changes, we're always navigating it. And it's so important to have these spaces to talk about how we do that. And my name is Sonia Friesen, and I'll be hosting today's episode. And if you're just joining us for the first time, I just hope that you find this is a great resource for yourself and to share with your community. How can we keep this conversation alive and ongoing?

And so I'm going to open it up for the rest of our panel. And a question I'd like to throw out there is, what is one of your favourite books that you can constantly go back to? So it doesn't matter, maybe it was when you were three or five, or maybe it was later on in life, but something that you find that is timeless, that you can continue to pick up and it's still refreshing.

VIJAY: Yeah, I'll jump in. I just finished reading The Two Towers with my youngest son as part of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. So that's I think fourth time through. So I don't have any more children after the three, so now it's just going to be me going back to it. But I love it, I get so lost in that world and yet, even though I know where it's going, it's so beautiful to kind of retread the ground.

ALICIA: For me, one of the books that I always go back to and probably read almost yearly is The Horse and His Boy by C. S. Lewis. And I just love the imagery of God being part of our story the whole way through even when we don't necessarily notice that He's there.

JOSIE: I love that book too, Alicia. This is Josie, and one that I go back to in my faith journey over and over again, is a book by Kenneth Boa, and it's called Conformed to His Image. And it's actually like this massive textbook, but it is just loaded with such good stuff. And he walks through many facets of the Christian life, but just takes such a balanced perspective and walks through a lot of the polarities that there are to manage in those different aspects of spirituality, which I find really helpful. So it's one I go back to again and again and again. Probably the best discipleship material I've walked through. So I recommend that one. He often writes really contemplative stuff, and this one is just a little hearty. It's hearty, but it's really, really good.

ROB: Well, Vijay, you stole my answer, because I am a Tolkien geek as well. I think I started reading it when I was 11. So every few years I crack the book again, all three volumes and make my way through it. So yeah, I'm a Tolkien lover. Like you, I just love being transported into the world that he's built and love the characters.

VIJAY: He wrote the Elvish language. He created a whole language. I'm like, "Okay, I respect, you weren't just trying to bang out a book."

ROB: Totally. I'll just add that there's a biography of Tolkien that was written and it was authorized. And I've read that a few times. So that's a go-to to go back to.

VIJAY: Is it the Hobbit, the World War, that one?

ROB: No, it's just called Tolkien.

VIJAY: Okay.

ROB: Yeah. It's great, brilliant to hear about his story and his relationship with C.S. Lewis and the Inklings. So big fan. I love going back there.

SONIA: Awesome. Thanks for sharing. You guys have just added some new reads for my list. I'll share mine. It's actually Little Women by Louisa May Alcott. And you know what, I always liked it as a child. And I think I'll always go back to it because I just love the dynamics of family and personalities in it, and how you can hone into each different life, and yet they're part of this larger family, and just seeing them navigate that. And so I enjoy that one.

Today we're actually going to be talking about truth. It's a common word and yet it's so packed in which way we go with it. And when we're navigating different things, I think the question I want us to think about and talk about is, what do we anchor to for truth? Because whether we are aware of it or not, we're always searching for something. We're always searching for truths. And we're wired for that, we were created for that.

Our Canadian culture and context allows us the ability to access billions of content with one click of a button. Google alone shares that it processes over 3.5 billion searches per day. If you break that statistic down, it means that Google processes over 40,000 search queries every second on average, and I personally contribute to that. You're welcome, Google. Now, Google isn't sponsoring this by any means, but just putting it out there.

But I think every other person likely can relate to this. I think it just highlights how we are wired to be on the search for truth. We're looking for answers, we're looking for solutions, and we may even be doing it, again, without being aware. And so I want to open it up as a question for us to think about it. What are some of the ways you see, it can be either in yourself or in the world around you, on how truth is being searched out today?

VIJAY: I remember listening to somebody talk about how prior to the Information Age, the amount of information that was present in society was small enough that an individual could possess all of the knowledge in a sense. But once we hit that exponential curve, that there was no way that any one person could know anymore. And so that shifted the focus to other relationships, like, who do we trust? Whose voices do we let in?

So I think that's a big one, whether it's like certain tribes, like I'm a part of this tribe and so I listen to all of the people in that tribe or their voices, or I'm looking for people that I believe are credible or authoritative. So Sonia, I think that's, like you said, it's maybe even unconscious. But definitely, it's like, yeah, we're looking for people that we trust. And it feels like it's come with a distrust too of all people. So now we're caught in the middle, I feel that tension sometimes.

ROB: I would just really comment on... Even though we're in a culture that's becoming increasingly postmodern and people are, in many ways, disdaining this idea of a metanarrative or a big truth, people are still exploring, which is fascinating. I think, particularly about what Elon Musk is doing, he's cranking up billions of dollars to go and explore the galaxy or Mars or whatever. And there's still a whole lot of exploration happening, say deep sea here on the planet that we don't know. So in some ways were we're not seeking out truth. But I would say that we're still trying to gain knowledge of the world in which we live and the universe in which we live, which is, I think, a positive thing.

VIJAY: It's been decentralized, it feels like. So many different people seeking and posting.

JOSIE: I think a big part of it too, for me as well, it's taking comfort in knowing. So if I can find something that makes me feel like I know, then there's some stability that comes from that. And I would agree, Vijay pointed out these different, we've got so much access to so much information now that people are pulling it all in and we've talked about Google a little bit. But of course, then there's social media. And those echo chambers that we can get ourselves into as well so that when we do have an idea, we can find people pretty easily who will pat us on the back and just say, "Yeah, you're totally right for thinking that way." So yeah, our sources are many yet we can really quickly affirm ourselves in the things that we want to be true as well.

ALICIA: Rob, when you were mentioning Elon Musk and exploring space, and just looking more at the natural world, I was just thinking how much as we dive into science and just the intricacies of the natural world, the people who are able to bring those connections and how they mirror the human experience. And that there's so many times even when you look at the root system of trees, I never would have understood that. But the scientists who are looking at what the root systems and how they're all connected, and then people who are able to say, "Oh, and look at how much we're connected as humans, or look at how much we're connected as communities." And so those truths that mirror the natural world.

JOSIE: Truths mirrored in creation, yeah.

VIJAY: I find a tension though in me, even... we're timestamping this talking about the pandemic... I suppose that's a massive timestamp... Anyways, I find when I feel anger, it's because I feel like well, who am I supposed to trust, who am I supposed to listen to? I feel torn apart by competing ideas. And like you said, Josie, I want that sense of stability. And sometimes that's a necessary thing. Like, "Okay, well, I need to make a decision. Who should I trust?" Sometimes I realize it's maybe just the thing in me that I don't feel good about myself or life, if I don't know where I stand on something. So that's been interesting. Or I'll get angry at people who I feel like are expressing views in too simplified terms, because I'm like, "Well, aren't you listening to the other truth that's out there? How could you be so whatever... just a window into my anger fantasies and judgementalism that comes out of my heart.

ALICIA: But even with anger, sometimes for me it's not even necessarily anger. But that deep sense of unease when I don't know what is actually true. And I feel like COVID-19 has just amplified that. Every other day it changes and you're like, "I just don't know what the truth is."

ROB: I think the challenge is we're starting to realize that the emperor has no clothes, and the emperor is the Google search. So we realized that really the Google search is a bit of a ruse...

VIJAY: I don't think you should type that into your Google search though.

ROB: Well, maybe 44,000 times a second. But the reality is we're trapped in an algorithm when we go to Google and so we're going to get the answers that Google thinks that we want, rather than maybe the answers that we need. And so that can create a sense of frustration. We say, "Well, I'm looking for truth, I'm going to Google it." You're maybe not going to get necessarily the truth.

And I mean, this is reality, living in what's called a post-truth culture. So Abdu Murray, he talks about this in the book Saving Truth. He talks about how we have moved beyond being pursuers of truth, but we're pursuing our truth. And he talks about soft truth, soft post-truth and hard post-truth. So hard post-truth is what we're seeing in politics and in culture, is that people are actually willing to propagate blatant falsehoods, even though they know they're false, but because it's going to push their political or social agenda. I mean, we've seen that. And so like, "Ah, truth, nobody cares about truth." We're in a post-truth culture, but we even do it in soft post-truth. We care about truth until it gets in the way of our personal preferences, and then truth kind of gets jettisoned and thrown out the window. And so this is why our Instagram accounts are not really truthful. I mean, nobody's putting up pictures of dirty dishes and dumps in their toilets. Yeah, don't edit that out. Keep that. But you know what I mean, nobody's putting... That's not real life. It's the nice, cultivated me, it's Photoshop.

VIJAY: And it feels like people are making more bold or strong categorical truth claims than ever, in weird... It was so funny watching the Social Dilemma doc... And one of my most favourite parts, was when the guy who used to be on the ground floor of one of the... He was kind of the main critique who had been on the inside of social media stuff, and at one point, I almost felt like he was going to say created, but he can't because he doesn't have the word. He said, "We weren't evolved to be so dependent on what other people think of us." And I was thinking, "We weren't? What? We weren't evolved... for anything?" You have to grasp on to something absolute, try to put weight behind what you're saying to people.

ROB: But Christians don't do that. We're not in a post-truth world as Christians, it's only the rest of the world, right?

SONIA: Yeah. And I think it's this beautiful tension of being created to know truth. And yet, we have the free will of how we allow ourselves to be guided by whatever truth we choose to follow. And I think that at times can be satisfying, when you fill yourself with the very thing you think this is leading me to truth. And then at the same time, it can become very overwhelming if you don't know how to anchor yourself in that. Because we can just grip ourselves to defend the very truth we know, and yet at times, we can be left feeling like, "Is this it? Am I missing something here?"

And I think as followers of Jesus, regardless of the shifts going on around us, or where it is that we're looking for truth, we need to know where we anchor on for it. And it may sound very basic and even elementary, but what about Scripture? How do we use that as an anchor? It's this precious tool, it's this life-giving truth, that we have to anchor ourselves. Even in the midst of we've all created our own structures of the information we want to let in. But we have the best filter, the best foundation through Scripture.

And I'd like to talk about that as followers of Jesus, how do we anchor on to Scripture, on this search for truth? Because again, I think sometimes the most basic or simple things are the very things that we wrestle with. And we actually don't know how to do it. It's one thing that's just said, "Oh, yeah, just go to Scripture." But what does that even mean? Because I think we have to acknowledge we all have our own experience and just perceptions on how to use Scripture as an anchor. And so my hope is that this conversation just opens that up for us to really reflect how we are anchoring on Scripture, what are some things we can let go of? And yet, what are the things that we need to continue to press on, in order to continue to help us to stay anchored to Scripture.

And as I was thinking about this episode, just the verse that kept coming to me, I remember it as a kid, but it was Psalm 119:105. And it says, "Your Word is a lamp to guide my feet, and a light for my path." And I believe that that helps us understand what Scripture does for us, how it looks like for us to start just this conversation knowing that we do have a guide through Scripture, we do have a solid foundation to come, it does give us a light, even in those places that it can feel overwhelming. And yeah, what are your thoughts on that? What are your thoughts on the anchor of Scripture?

JOSIE: As you were saying that I was just thinking about... Well, you asked the question, when people say we'll just go to Scripture, what does that mean? How do we go to Scripture? And I know oftentimes, people, and I've done it in the past too, will go to Scripture and go grab the proof text that affirms my opinion, that makes me feel good about what I think I believe. And it's almost like this Christianese version of an echo chamber that we talk about happening in social media, where we surround ourselves with people or ideas or feedback that tells us what we want to hear.

And I think we're at risk of doing that sometimes too when we think about how are we going to approach Scripture? Well, am I going to go find what I think I need right now? Am I going to go find what I'm looking for right now? Or am I perhaps going to come with a more open posture? And I think we all have lenses. So that's really hard to do, to come completely open and just see what God's Word is going to say to us and figure it out from there, rather than trying to help it to say what I want it to say.

VIJAY: Well, there's so many arguments about Scripture right now, even within Christian circles, so that adds to the confusion, I think. And we talk about whose truth is true. There's all conversations about well, what do we mean when we say Scripture is true, or inerrant, or the Word of God and how do we use it? So I find that is complex as well. And all of those things are starting to jump to mind for many people listening as soon as Sonia says, "Hey, so how do we go to Scripture?" It brings up immediate context and people wondering, "Okay, well, where are they going in this? Is this going to be a deconstructing Scripture conversation?" I don't know, we'll see. That's part of it too, right?

JOSIE: Yeah.

SONIA: Yeah. I think you bring up a great point, Vijay, when we hear the word "Scripture" that in itself is loaded. And what do we do with it? So there's so many ways to go for it. And I think what I'd like to present is the responsibility and just the call to steward Scripture well for ourselves, but it's not just about ourselves. Because if this is really an anchor that everyone can have the opportunity to anchor on, then my own selfish and trying to prove it, I've really missed the mark on how to steward it well, because the point of this is to make space for all to enter in. Scripture is an anchor that we can all use and yet, we are not the ones in the full authority of Scripture. We are followers of Jesus together, navigating this.

And so again, I think it comes down to it's not just to use it how I want or what benefits me, it's really to discover the richness of it, and yet that is complex. But if we don't talk about it, I don't think we can really arrive there, or really be aware of where can I not be using it in the way that is meant for it to be used. Or also celebrate the way that Scripture has brought life and an anchoring foundation for us to live. Thoughts on that?

JOSIE: Just that it's really good.

VIJAY: Just about saying, "Hey, we have to throw the doors wide open. We want everyone to be able to have this in their life, wherever they happen to be." And that's good.

SONIA: Yeah, so good. All right. So as we talk about, again, just having on the forefront, that Scripture is an anchor that we choose, in the way that we seek out truth. I want to talk about how we as the church relate to Scripture as a whole, and why? Because again, I think whether you grew up in the church, or you didn't, maybe this is a whole new thing for you. Maybe you don't even know what Scripture is, or why do followers of Jesus use that? Is this just another book, like Little Women that we talked about, or Tolkien at the beginning? Is this just another timeless thing that we can continue to go back on?

I think that that's really important for us to know why we do it, but also understand where culture lies with Scripture today. Now, knowing that, I think different research organizations, there's a way that we can tap into what is going on in the church and Scripture, and it has its imperfections, but it does shine some light for us to know how this is being related to in our day and age.

Barna Group, which is a research organization that focuses on just the intersection of faith and culture. They put out a yearly State of the Bible Report for America. And it helps us give some insight on the spiritual climate of our culture. And it was interesting to read an article done on Christianity Today, just based off the 2020 State of the Bible Report. And they discuss how Bible reading dropped during social distancing. So we're very aware that this is the times we're living in, a time where community is limited, community has shifted, the way we do church looks different. And yet we see the impact of that through Scripture, how we're accessing it, how we're using it.

And the article said that the drop of Scripture reading was linked to church attendance as a contributor to the decline of Bible reading. And people tended to read less, because they weren't again, in that church community, in that rhythm of we go here, and we do this. And I think that this magnifies maybe where our culture, and specifically I'm talking about the church, our church culture engages with Scripture. But I do think that that issue has been there before this pandemic. This necessarily isn't something new, or that we can fully peg on social distancing. But it has heightened the level of awareness that it reveals the need for us as followers of Jesus to really pay attention to why or why not are we turning to Scripture?

And I think again, it can seem so common sense in that, and I would like us to dive into some of the contributors we see for this. And my thoughts are that, I think, in our discipleship process, or the way we've engaged with Scripture, at times to a fault, we've been too prescriptive maybe. I'm going to put that out there. Maybe we've said it always has to look like this in the way that you engage with Scripture and we haven't allowed the space for someone really to process and discover that anchor for themselves. Because maybe it has been more of a checklist or you need someone else in order to access this truth. You need a mediator, you need that pastor, you need that Bible study leader in order for you to really be able to engage with it.

And yet, we know that as followers of Jesus, we all have the same access, this is a free gift to us all. But there's a disconnect there that I'm trying to highlight, that it's important for us to talk about in order for us to really know how to engage with Scripture. If we don't know the contributing factors, or can at least start the conversation... maybe some people aren't even aware that they aren't engaging with Scripture in the way they should be, maybe this has become normal. Maybe it has become like I said to that article that said, well, church attendance has caused or has helped contribute to the decline.

But maybe someone doesn't know yet the access they have to come to it. But what are some of the things we as a church can say we've contributed to this? Or also can say we're looking at ways that we ourselves, how did we learn that Scripture was something we could engage with, regardless of social distancing, regardless of the shifts that come? Alright, so my question is, what are some of those contributing factors that you see have helped this gap grow between someone knowing that they have access to Scripture, but when something shifts, they no longer know how to anchor to it?

VIJAY: I think part of it is what you mentioned, if we have this idea that Scripture as this sort of textbook, or text slash very holy book, I know we call it the Holy Bible, not saying it's not, but that means only certain people can interpret it. Either holy people, like some of us come from very sort of high church traditions where the book was a part of a sacramental view of who handles it. But even if it didn't come from that, just the idea of textual criticism, Greek, Hebrew, word-by-word, and we hear our pastors say things, we're like, "Well, I didn't know that. How could I even read it?" Or, "I didn't go to seminary or something." So I think there's that.

And then I think some of this, "Scripture is a rule book for life" kind of thing, which I know why and I think I've even said that in the past or felt that. But then when we're like, "Well, there's no pandemic and there's nothing that is in there applies to this situation." It seems like the pandemic, I feel at times in my own life, and I've seen others who are just like, "Oh, we throw up everything. Everything's up for grabs."

I remember a friend of mine talking, when we were studying the Cuban Missile Crisis in university and she said, "Yeah, my dad was telling me he was going to school during that." In 1963, I guess it was, or '61. And he said, "We just stopped going to class, we sat on the roof and drank beer, because we were sure World War III was coming." And I think there's that attitude almost now. It's like, "Oh, no, everything I used to do regularly, it's all out the window. It's all up for grabs." And so I don't even know if it's a conscious thing. I think that's been true about all of our rhythms and routines, and maybe the Bible is sort of collateral damage in that.

JOSIE: I think that's true, Vijay. We've lost a bit of our rhythm of life, we've lost a bit of our lens, because for some of us, I think our anchor points have been shaken because everything that was normal, or much of what was normal, has been shaken. And so then there's this questioning of everything. Like, how then shall we live when everything feels like it's upside down?

So I was initially surprised a little bit to hear that Scripture reading had gone down during the pandemic, because I guess I thought, well, people are going to be turning somewhere for answers. But I also think, in all the noise and the different instant and new pieces of information that we've been able to grab, and we've had to be attentive to in the last while, I wonder if that perhaps has created some shift for us and saying, "Well, I've been there, I know what's in that book and I really need to pay attention to what's happening in real time now. So I'm going to get my truth from other sources." Whether that's social media, or the news or whatever.

But I think part of it is being out of rhythm and then being out of community too, because our community also shows us how we're going to live that space that we find ourselves in. And I wonder, too, if some of it is our desire for instant gratification and quick answers, so we go looking for the places where we can find those things.

VIJAY: And let's be honest, the alarm rings, or whatever, in the morning, and when have we ever literally needed to look at our phone or turn on the news to find out what we're going to do that day because someone in our child's class has a case and now we're all going to quarantine for 14... I mean, we've never been in this. So if our normal routine was Scripture, it's like, "Well, no, I check my phone and what I see there might send me into problem solving mode for the next five minutes, never mind what Scripture is." Right?

JOSIE: Yeah. I'm looking out the window, and my daughter just drove in. And I got a text message saying, "Mom, I have to quarantine." So that changes things. New rhythms, new sources of information.

ALICIA: And maybe part of it is as we see the stats going down, that as leaders in the church, have we been too presumptive to assume that people do have full access? Or that they realize the access that they have to Scripture? It's easy to say everyone has access to Scripture, but if it has been a peripheral kind of reading, maybe we haven't actually anchored people in the way that we should be anchoring them to the Scripture and teaching them how does this become an anchor in your life rather than just a discipline?

JOSIE: I wonder too, speaking of discipline, I wonder if we've lost some of that discipline as well. I know that there are places in my life where I have become undisciplined and then there's other places where I have created so much structure just to feel safe and feel good that I'm over-disciplined in other areas. But that rhythm, that routine, that practice, the good practice of being in God's Word has perhaps lightened up for many too, and then we miss out on the life that it gives us.

ROB: But I think the problem of biblical or religious illiteracy was happening well before the pandemic ever came about. I mean, there's books have been written about this, how Americans are both deeply religious but profoundly ignorant of what's actually in the Bible. And I know not a lot of Canadian books have been written, but I don't think we are immune to this same problem, at least, as I talk to folks in our context.

Yeah, I mean, I'd be interested in knowing what's the root cause of this problem that's dating back decades in North America. So I think Josie mentioned before, everyone kind of has their hobby horse Scripture that they throw out there on the rare occasion, but that might actually just be the extent of all they know is that tiny bit. So what is the larger problem about biblical literacy in our culture? And maybe it is we are spoon fed too much by YouTube videos and preachers, and people are not learning how to go to Scripture themselves to find the answers they're looking for.

VIJAY: And maybe this is a massive reset opportunity to rediscover. I think, whether it's any rhythm in our lives, when it all gets disrupted, we start saying, "Well, why was I doing this or why wasn't I?" And it's a chance to go, "Well, what role could this play in my life?" Like you said Rob, if it wasn't an anchor before, and now maybe the only thing that's changed is we realize how desperate we are for anchors. That's not the thing that's changed, it's the disruption of it. We're going, "Wait a second, I can't live like this." And so maybe this is a beautiful opportunity for us to rediscover it as individuals and for church leaders to say, "Oh, how can we build this into our communities as anchors?" And people aren't going to go, "Well, why do I need an anchor?" No one's going to ask us that question.

ROB: I'm hearing this conversation, and I'm thinking, there's this priest who's put up this YouTube channel this last year, and it's about the Bible. It's just talking about the Bible and I think he does it like every day. But it's trending like one of the top videos that's out there in podcasts. And so we have this huge interest in people wanting to know about the Bible, and yet on the other hand, we're hearing Barna say, "Well, people aren't reading their Bible." So what's that all about? Any ideas? Any thoughts?

ALICIA: I mean, as you were saying that, part of me wonders, is it just the mode of intake that has changed slightly? I mean, I see youth watching videos of the Bible Project. And so they're not reading necessarily the traditional way that we would, but they're going through the Scripture in a way that, although it's not the way that I might have grown up doing it, it's still a way that they're learning what the Scripture is, and grounded. And so maybe it's just a new vehicle, YouTube, of taking in the Bible and Scripture.

JOSIE: I wonder too, and I don't think I have an answer, but I'm wondering about the audience as well. Like that priest, for example, if there's this massive following, who are the people who are tuning in? Who are the people who are seeking answers? Are they people who would have come from a faith background before? Or are they people who are looking for an anchor point who aren't part of a faith community yet?

ROB: Yeah. Well, I will say this, he is one good-looking priest. He's got a dimpled chin and a huge smile. And I'm like, "I could listen to this guy all day long." So maybe he's like the celebrity pastor for the Catholic world. And there's a large percentage of Catholic people, followers of Jesus out there who are just like, "Yeah, this is our guy, and we're so thankful for the contribution he's making." So it could be that⏤

SONIA: That's not what I thought you were going to say, Rob. Yeah, I love all the thoughts. And I think it really brings about how do we do this? As followers of Jesus, how do we follow Jesus if we don't really know what he taught? And so that's where I'd like us to go in and unpack a bit of the how and this is the time in our episode where we dial in the conversation. And I will let Rob and Alicia sit back and listen to our dialogue and they'll come in a little later.

And so yeah, we're going to talk about the how. And earlier on I was talking about, do we know that we have permission to anchor to Scripture for ourselves? I'd like us to talk a little bit of the how with that. Why is there that disconnect? So we talked about, we see the disconnect highlighted during the pandemic, but also the realization that this has been there before that. And so I don't want to belittle what we're facing now, but I also want to bring it back that this is a question we keep bumping back to, regardless of what is shifting around us.

I said it before, I think sometimes we have given the outline maybe too rigid, maybe the permission was missed somewhere there to even ask the questions of how do I engage with Scripture for myself? Do we have the allowance and the space and the freedom to try different ways to engage with Scripture? As culture shifts, and the way, I know Alicia just brought it up a little bit ago, is how our youth are accessing Scripture. And maybe they are going through YouTube.

I think of the series, The Chosen. I don't know if you've heard of it. But I've heard a lot of people starting to bring that up and saying, "Hey, this is really coming alive to me." And that has sparked some people to actually go to that passage to now read it, because they've seen it in a visual setup with creative liberties.

But I wonder in that, how do we allow space for that? And I'd love to hear your thoughts, should we? Because I could see some of us feeling uncomfortable with that, like, "What do you mean allow space? Or what do you mean creative liberties? Or what do you mean it doesn't look like the Bible reading plan?" Which I'm not knocking by any means, but I'm just saying that can sometimes make us feel uncomfortable. Or maybe you're on the end, like yes, we need to break the mold that maybe we've created to allow for new life in the way we anchor to Scripture. And so how do we remain true to Scripture, but allow the space for each other in how we engage and interact with Scripture? Should we allow for space?

VIJAY: Yeah. Oh, I think for sure. When I look at my journey with Scripture over the years, I think it was very one-dimensional in the sense of it was daily Bible reading, working through the Bible in a year. And often we interact with our spiritual practices, the way that the people who mentored us did, which that's not rocket science, that's just what happens. But sometimes that's not necessarily fits with our personality or the way we are. And I think over the last several years, I've been taught by different people different ways that Scripture anchors me, so it doesn't anchor me in the same way.

One day my spiritual director and I were talking and he was talking to me about a passage or something and John, chapter 4 came up, the woman at the well. And he said, "Okay, well, why don't you read that for the next month." I'm like, "The next month? I can get in my car and read it in five minutes." But so we talked about it, and he will have certain times where he feels like not all the time, or the Lord leads into a Scripture. And he says, "Just go back to it over and over and over again." And that was something I would have never. If you're reading for information or to get through your plan, well, that doesn't make any sense.

So there have been things like that, that have helped me realize, "Oh, I can interact with this in many different ways." And what would happen if I did? So that's definitely changed for me over the years and it's been really helpful, I would say, because it's not just thinking about it in one anchor point. It's like it's tying me down in multiple ways. And so when certain things shift or get uprooted, like we talked about routines, or don't fit with my personality, because I like to change stuff all the time, I have multiple anchor points in this whole area of Scripture, not just one.

JOSIE: That's good.

SONIA: And maybe it isn't even that your anchor shifts, it just anchors more. The more that you learn something new, you're actually anchoring deeper.

VIJAY: And this for me, it's actually rescued me from this whole, all the debates of inerrancy and all this stuff because the more I interact with it, the more it speaks to me, it reads me, it feeds me. I don't need to get into all this. Not to be dismissive about those things. I think it was Calvin who said, "The text is self-authenticating in its authority. The more you read it, it proves itself to you." So for sure that's been my experience, what you said.

JOSIE: That's good. And the whole idea of allowing for space, I think whether we acknowledge it or not, we're always allowing for space when we take in God's Word, because we can't help but contextualize. As we're reading, we're looking through our own lens, we're thinking about our own story. And I think as we read through passages too, we've got God's Word, but he has also created us with emotion and with imagination to think about, "Oh, what would that have been like? What would the environment look like, feel like? What must it have been like for the disciple in that moment to have that conversation with Jesus or the woman at the well?" And we sit with that, and we wonder, and we naturally are creating space as creative beings with creativity, engaging with God's Word. And as Vijay was talking about, it's not something that's static, it's something that is alive. And it does self authenticate in our lives because of our own experiences as well.

SONIA: Yeah, no, I like the statement of we are allowing space as we do it. And I even think about, as we think about the how, and maybe what has hindered that. I wonder if this is heightened just because of the busyness of our culture, we don't allow space or give ourselves permission to create space for this. And now the pandemic hits and like Vijay said, everything's up in the air. And yet, because we didn't give ourselves permission then, we may struggle to give ourselves permission now.

And I think maybe some in the church can struggle with shame of that, and not want to ask for help. Because well, I shouldn't have been doing this before. And so I do think that is a piece that could hinder the how, is if we allow ourselves to stay stuck there. I think if we've allowed this time and the social distancing for some reflective space, I think we can start to see the areas of why we got there, or at least know that there are some things we need to pursue.

And I think just as a church as a whole, just allowing ourselves the permission, that as followers of Jesus, the anchor of Scripture is a way of life. And it's a way for us to give ourselves to the journey, it's part of the journey. It's never just the checklist of the day, but actually, as we engage with it, that is part of being a follower of Jesus. Not part of it, but it is a foundational piece, and just allowing ourselves also to give ourselves permission that this is a journey. Because I think how you relate it to Scripture, if you were engaging with it at a young age, or in a different season or stage of life will look different in the next season or stage of life.

And so allowing yourself to explore the journey of anchoring to Scripture, where maybe it has had some negative connotations or boring, like, "It's just another book or whatever." But you're right, the more you give yourself to it, you really don't need to defend it in the sense of we don't have to have that pressure, we get to go in and enjoy it. And yeah, how have we contributed to limiting people's engagement with Scripture in the past? What can we learn from this?

VIJAY: Yeah. One of the guys I listened to a podcast, said something once that was so profound to me, he described the Protestant Reformation as a great divorce in church history, where the assets got divided up and the parents split and each parent took some things with them. And the children had to choose which parent they were going to live with, and therefore which assets they were going to lose. And so he talked about things like a lot of the contemplative practices sort of quote, "Authority of Scripture went with the Protestants, authority of the church went with the Catholics," contemplative spirituality and some of that stuff. Now, maybe that's an oversimplification, whatever, but it was so helpful to me to realize, "Yeah, that's why I didn't grow up with any of this stuff."

And in the past episode, when Rob was talking us through modernism, postmodernism, this whole rationalistic approach to Scripture without the mysterious sacramental, experiential. So I think, I realized for the last years, man, I have to make up some ground with my congregation and teaching them different ways to interact with Scripture. Like I think you talk about space... Lectio Divina, holy readings, prayers of Examen, those kinds of things. One of the apps that's been a lifeline for me in the pandemic, it's called Lectio 365. And it's a way of listening through Scripture, but praying through it in this very life-giving way that was completely absent from my sort of toolbox, if you will, for many years.

So I think, yeah, some of the ways I've limited it as a leader in my own life and in the lives of others is not reading widely and not open to wider influences of Scripture. And so I think I'm realizing, man, if I didn't have some of those in this pandemic, I would just be lost right now. And yeah, I think we mentioned BibleProject and The Chosen. I think all of those are lenses that are actually inviting us to see Jesus ultimately.

Because like one of my oldest systematic theology profs said, the Scriptures are the manger clothes in which is wrapped the Christ. And I was like, "Oh." And he's like, "Why do we peel back the layers of Scripture? Why? To see Christ! Not in an end of itself, the manger clothes themselves are not... it's Christ revealed." So all those things have been helpful to me. Have I talked about Scripture in a way that's actually talking about manger clothes, or have I talked about it as an end in itself? And if it's and end in itself, it's not enough now. We need to see Jesus in this, right?

JOSIE: Yeah. Yeah. So good. And I think even though the Scripture that you pointed us to right out of the gate Sonia, that God's Word is a light to our path and a lamp to our feet. And that's in Psalm 119, which is just jam packed extolling how good God's Word is for us. And like you said, Vijay, not as an end in itself, but as this thing we can be immersed in that is life and breath to us. I wrote down Lectio 365 I'm going to check that out too, Vijay, thank you.

VIJAY: It's so good.

JOSIE: Yeah. But I wonder as well about... I might ramble for a minute here because I'm thinking about what Rob has said in an earlier episode about postmodernism, and what our world has the appetite for in these days in terms of what's true, what's not, et cetera. And then I also wonder, how can we create an appetite for God's Word? If we're thinking about leadership as leaders, how can we create an appetite for God's Word?

And in another previous episode, Vijay, you talked about leaders who have fallen, and we talked about one of the risks of leadership being that pedestal that we put people on. So as I think about this appetite for Scripture, where the role of the leader I think, oftentimes, our leaders and pastors can be the ones, because they're seen as the authority, or the storyteller, or the whatever, the one to deliver, they're the ones giving the message rather than creating an appetite. So how can we have some shift in our posture away from just delivery and more toward letting the delivery be an invitation to dig in further.

SONIA: I think those are great points, Josie. And I think, Vijay, you said it early on, it's basic, but what you model is what those around you will follow and do. And so I don't even think that it starts with us saying, "Hey, how does the church do this?" But how do we allow for us to enjoy the journey ourselves? How do we give ourselves permission to continue to find ways for this anchor to grow deeper? And I think we can't do that alone. I don't think I know that. We were never created to do this alone. And so of course, we see people in this time when community has shifted for us all, just trying to navigate how do we even do this? But yet, at the same time, stressing the fact that it's a worthwhile thing to give ourselves to.

How do we do this as leaders? One of the ways we can break from limiting people's engagement is staying on the pursuit of allowing community to speak into that area of life of how we're journeying with Scripture, how we're choosing that anchor. And accountability is key with that, I think, because, yeah, it's a space. I think accountability isn't a scary word, on the contrary, I find it so comforting, in the sense of you know you don't have to do this alone and you know it's a journey.

And so I think one of the things that we can learn from this is, as we give ourselves to the journey that molds the how, for not only our own personal lives, but for those that we are around and they're trying to glean from. It starts to give them the ability to say, "Hey, if I just want to sit with the "Woman at the Well" passage for a month, I know I can do that. If God's really calling me into one chapter, one passage for this set of amount of time, I have the freedom to do that. I have the freedom to discover in that way.

VIJAY: What I think experiencing it, one of the things we realized is, our weekly Sunday gatherings are where most of our people are at one time. And so why aren't we doing more experiential things in that space? Because it's one thing for me to talk about meditating on Scripture or practicing silence, or going through confession. But then I'm assuming people know what I mean. I'm assuming people are going to go and do it some other time. We're there, we're together, why not just do it now? And that's been kind of cool even when much of our gathering has been virtual where we can go through our contemplative exercise together, we can meditate on Scripture together right then to give us a taste of something, that someone goes, "Oh, my gosh, I could totally do this on my own."

So I think that's been, for me also realizing that's way more taking 10, 15 minutes out of my sermon, is way more effective to experience than to hear me talk about it for 15 more minutes. And then I'm going through the exercise too, I'm not just talking to people about it. For me, I need this. So like you said, Sonia, we're catching it from each other, where we're seeing it. And I think that's for me why I ended up reading Scripture, because I saw it be so real in my parents life. I knew they were getting fed by this thing. So I'm like, "I think I'm going to try that too." And I think that's important. Someone said faith is more caught than taught, and I think that's what are they catching from us in this season? I think it's a good question.

JOSIE: I love that idea, Vijay. Practicing it together gives it accessibility too. It's not this far away thing, it's not a scary practice, it's something that we can do together, it's something we can do apart. And Sonia, as you were talking about accountability, I was thinking about the beauty of accountability beyond the checklist-type accountability and the discipline-type accountability, but accountability in community is the fruitfulness and the life that can come out of it because it becomes activated as we are engaging with it with one another too, beyond just the to do list.

SONIA: Yeah. And I think I appreciate the even just putting it together the accountability in community because there's a safety in there. And I brought up shame before, but I do think that lots in our church do struggle with that in this area. And yet here we are having this conversation, knowing that we do navigate this. It can be complex if you don't know where to start or how to do it. And so I think the more you can have those spaces of accountability within community, it allows people to come in and to recognize, "Hey, this is a journey, but all you need is a yes." And man, most of my yeses are weak in itself, but we do this together.

And I think that is a way that can move us into just, like Vijay, you're talking about in a Sunday service, how do we allow those spaces? How do we give ourselves permission to bring people in on that, for the ones that are feeling, I don't know how to do this or where to start, or I don't even want to admit it. But man, you're right, once you taste it, once you actually really see this, you want it. There's no other way, there's no other truth that's going to satisfy you, there isn't. And there's lots of helpful things out there. And yet, you can still remain overwhelmed, and yet we have something to continue to go to. And I think that modeling of that, and yet just giving ourselves permission in our structures, and to reevaluate, what needs to shift for this to actually be important?

JOSIE: Yeah, moving beyond. And this is how we're going to observe our faith and observe the Scripture to this is how we're going to experience it together. And I think that's a fantastic question, how can we find ways to experience Scripture together?

SONIA: And so I think some of the hows we've talked about in this is allowing us to reevaluate and see what spaces we have. Are we lacking permission somewhere that we just need to be reaffirmed, you have the permission to journey on with the anchor of Scripture? Whether that be through meditation, through different spiritual disciplines, finding those spaces in our community where this can be practiced, where people can feel welcome to come in, no shame, just come and join into the journey. And as leaders continually doing that just as a personal way of life, but letting that overflow to those around us so that they are given the permissions and the freedoms to do that. And I'm going to invite Rob and Alicia back in as you guys have been hearing a bit of this conversation, what are some things that have jumped out for you or some things that you'd love to challenge or for us to think about? Welcome back.

ALICIA: Thanks.

ROB: Hey, it's good to be back. I was just thinking that, I wonder if part of the challenge that a number of people face in reading Scripture is part of a larger problem that we're facing culturally, in our social context is there's a problem with reading in general, culturally that people are facing. And a lot of that plays into shame that people face. So the idea of reading the Bible is linked to the idea of reading in general, that we're not a reading culture. So video killed the radio star. Well, Internet and social media has killed long-form reading and people's attention spans.

So I disciple groups of guys. Every year, I usually have three or four guys in my orbit that we spend a lot of time discipling. And a number of them say to me, this idea of reading just really intimidates them. And typically, they're younger millennials, and some of them are even thinking of going back to school, and they're like, "Oh, I could never go back to school because I don't read." And I always say to them, reading is like anything else and your brain is a muscle.

So I'm a 275-pound guy, and I run 10Ks. I didn't start one day, waking up running 10Ks, I ran 500 meters and I died. And then weeks later, it was one kilometer and then two kilometers, and five and seven, et cetera. You have to train your mind, and you can do it. And some of these guys who came into the discipleship group were not readers, left as readers and they're like, "Wow, I didn't know that I could learn to read deeply and thoughtfully and consistently."

So I do think that part of it is just a general social problem that we're experiencing. And I am concerned, I think it's easy to say, "Well, let's just get them watching Bible videos and all of that." But I wonder if we are also doing a disservice to emerging generations by not helping them even just to develop this skill of reading and reading Scripture.

JOSIE: I think that's right. Yeah.

ALICIA: Yeah. I appreciate that, Rob, of that really challenging the norms of... As we see our culture moving away from reading in general, how do we use Scripture to ground what's on a good practice? I think one of the things that I was reflecting over the conversation is just, I loved how we were talking about Scripture as experiencing God. Because so often, I think, Scripture growing up for me was much more about gaining knowledge of God. And so we would read the Scripture in order to gain knowledge of God and I would go to church to experience God.

But when you look at Scripture as a living document, and you look at it as the living Word of God, and we reframe that Scripture is the thing that we come to, to experience God, I think it reframes our lens of how we read it. And Vijay, as you were saying, it lets us slow down, it lets us be able to be grounded in just one area of Scripture.

But I think it challenges what we see as truth, because our experience of God is a very unique thing. It's a very individual thing. And there's lots of commonalities. But I can't argue someone else's experience of God, I can't argue someone else's reading of a Scripture, and then how they experienced God through that Scripture.

And so I find it in this interesting tension, as we're talking about truth and as Scripture as our anchor to truth, how does it then also become this experiential element of our lives? And how do we then move away from a fundamental argument of this is what the truth has to be, or this is what the Scripture has to be mean for it to be truth? Because if I'm experiencing God speaking through a Scripture, does that mean that what would be seen as the orthodox meaning of it is any less valid?

And so how do we hold that there's truth in Scripture, a living document that we experience God through but also that we have these orthodox and fundamental readings of it that we've held on to for so long, historically, and that I think we still need to live in those tensions that there is a truth in the Scriptures.

ROB: So I'll reflect on what you've said, I mean, my concern is that in the postmodern culture in which we're in and the postmodern mood that we have, part of that culture consists of this function of deconstruction that's taking place all the time. And the idea behind deconstruction is that truth is primarily perspectival. So in other words, all of my experience of the world is an interpretation, and your experience of the world is an interpretation. And because it's an interpretation, that means everything is subject to interpretation and to interpretation alone. So in other words, the mood that's in our culture is that truth is just perspectival, it's just a matter of perspective. That's it. There's no truth that's out there. Everything is your perspective of the world.

But I don't think that Derrida, one of the original thinkers of deconstruction would say that that's true. I think the followers of Derrida and our culture today have taken it to a far extreme to say that that's true. I think the idea is that they would say yes, truth is perspectival, but truth is not only perspectival. In other words, there are better truths than other truths. So we would say that, we could look at a text of Scripture, and we could come up with 10 interpretations of that text, but does that mean they're all equally true and valid? And I don't think any of us are saying that. But we might say, "Well, some are better interpretations than others, and there's probably a really, really good interpretation that's probably top notch and we can give a good reason why we think that that one is the best interpretation."

So my concern is that we don't want to just capitulate to the postmodern mood and say, "Everything's a crapshoot, everything's perspectival, everything is the Wild West with interpretation of Scripture." I think there are better interpretations. I also think that there's a reason why Jesus gave teachers to the church. I mean, it's a spiritual gift of teaching. I think that Jesus himself was a teacher, we are a teaching tradition. And so there is validity and importance in having people be able to interpret the Word for us and to help us.

So we're living in this tension, we're living this tension between, I need to be able to read the Bible for myself and grow for it and be nurtured by it. But it's also important that I have teachers who are able to help me interpret Scripture. And maybe the pendulum has swung too far because of the Reformation towards "Teacher, spoon feed me!" rather than me going and receiving it myself.

I'll add something else, you can cut this out of the video or out of the audio, but if you go to the mission frontier in the world, so if you go to China, for example, the underground church, they're feasting on one piece of Scripture. They've got maybe a page of the Bible, and that's all they got. And so they don't have a lot of teachers, really what they have is they're reading the Scripture, and they're living on this one Scripture, and that's their life.

But what you see happening there in the mission frontier is the mass proliferation of the gospel, it is spreading like wildfire, even though they don't have teachers. But what you also see is the emergence of a large number of cults at the same time, because there's no one there to guard against heresy and false teaching. And then when you come back to the West here, hey, we got an abundance of teachers, we got seminaries, we've got people that teach you until you're blue in the face and yet, we're not seeing this massive proliferation of the gospel, and because people aren't necessarily reading it for itself.

You can look at the history of the church in North America. And you can look at the Methodist movement, and its growth and trajectory during the 1800s. It reached its peak at this certain year in the 1800s and then it began its rapid decline after that. What happened during that year? What happened during that year was all clergy were required to be ordained. In other words, all the clergy suddenly became very, very intellectual, and very, very well taught and people stopped reading the Bible for themselves. And you saw this major decline happening. So anyway, I understand we live in this tension. And so I'm like, "Ah, how do I help my own people read the Bible? And yet I know they really appreciate my teaching all the time." Anyway, some thoughts.

ALICIA: I think one of the thoughts that I had too, as we're continuing to talk, is that we hold Scripture as truth, and that's incredibly important. But we also have to recognize that it doesn't hold all the universal truths. And so as we read it, we also have to our ability to understand and interpret the truth is in the Scripture for what it was meant to be speaking to, not as this universal, necessarily science textbook. Or that there was specific experiences that were happening, Jesus lived in that time with those people, and we see these stories and narratives of those experiences. But they're not the narratives of every experience that's ever happened in the history of time. And so to be able to hold that not all truth is held within the Scripture, but the Scripture itself is alluding to the truth that's there. I don't know if that was too... You can cut that out if you need, Regan.

ROB: That the Scripture is all truth, but not all truth is in Scripture.

ALICIA: Yep.

ROB: The Scripture says nothing about rockets going to the moon, but there's truth in the science behind those rockets going to the moon. But all truth is God's truth.

VIJAY: One of the things that has been helpful for me that I think is important, as we teach Scripture, is showing how Jesus was teaching. Like you said, Rob, he is the Rabbi, he is our true teacher. He taught about truth in a way that was constantly rescuing his listeners from the polar opposites of reaction too, so they want to throw off the law, or they're wondering if he is and their religious leaders are like, "Hey, do you not subscribe?" And he's like, "No, I'm not here to get rid of any of it. But I'm the fulfillment of that." "Well, what does that mean? What does it mean that you have fulfilled?" I think truth as a person, that's what Jesus was pointing to, which I do think is actually really fresh, even for a postmodern millennial Gen Z context. Because we are looking to people, but then we want to know can we trust them?

And I think, man, this repeated sacrificial humility of Jesus ultimately displayed in the cross, is the thing that makes me constantly want to trust him because no one's ever done that for me. No one took all of the authority and truth and instead of using it for their own gain, actually allowed it to kill them and for me. Okay, I think I can trust you. Okay, what do you say Alicia, this tension of between what am I interpreting from this myself to my own situation versus what it's objective.

Jesus is the ultimate interpreter. He's the law maker, law interpreter, and yet we trust him because he seemed to do it in a way that made everyone who felt like they weren't living up to it, feel like they wanted to hang around him. What is that? We don't know anyone like that. So I feel like it has made me just want to run to him in these days and say, "Okay, you got to teach me, you got to help me interpret these tensions, you got to rescue me from where I want to lean." And I think that is relevant for today's group is continue to point to all of the ways in which Jesus is the one we can trust.

JOSIE: He has demonstrated that He is trustworthy, He has demonstrated that He has our best interest at heart. And therefore, and it's not the only therefore, but therefore, His Word is also trustworthy. Even when it might confuse us at times, even when there are parts of us parts of it that we might trip on, we know that because He is trustworthy, it is trustworthy.

ROB: I think one of the characteristics that embodied Jesus was humility and understanding, while embracing His limitations as a man, the God-man. But I think that's one of the aspects of Him that was attractive. And I also think that that's one of the aspects that we need to bear as we're in this postmodern milieu. Because humility says, I have limitations, I can't know all the truth, I don't have all the answers. And I think that that's an important way to engage the postmodern context is to say...

So I'm teaching Romans 7 this Sunday. It's like a controversial text in Scripture, and then I have to walk through this thing with my congregation. And there's three or four ways that you can look at this thing, and I have to say to them, "Okay, I see this, this and this as options, but I'm going to go with this one, and this is why." But I might be wrong. And down the road, there might be new evidence that says this is why it's wrong. And I think that that's an important posture to have, in the postmodern context in this frame.

But I'm not going to say, "Hey, this is an interpretation, this is an interpretation, this is an interpretation, this is an interpretation, choose what you want. They're all equally true and valid." I'm not going to say that, so it's a different way. But I still think we need to embody the humility of Jesus as we come and we talk about Scripture.

VIJAY: And it's your life, Rob, over a period of time lived out with a certain group of people that will not be about them trusting you categorically. But just saying, "Okay, as this person is teaching me, I am seeing a life that I want to follow." And I was listening to something the other day and saying we don't need to back away from... That was what Paul said, he said, "Follow me as I follow Christ." That's crazy. It's like saying, "Hey, if you're not sure where to look, look to me." It actually puts the onus on us to say, "Okay, I'm following Jesus." But I think we've so backed away in this because of the, we talked about the frailty of leaders in past episodes, to not be afraid to say I'm on the journey with you. But if you're going to watch my life over a period of time, it will either be trustworthy and worth following or it won't be, and you'll know. That's it.

ROB: Yeah. I wanted to just share, I really appreciate it, I can't remember which of you said, I think you all said it a little bit, but just this idea that we have such a cognitive understanding of Scripture. But I really want to just endorse what would be an aesthetic depreciation of Scripture, which we find in Psalm 119. I was looking at some Scriptures like he says, in verse 103, "How sweet are your words to my taste, sweeter than honey from my mouth." And then Psalm 119:97, says, "Oh, how I love your law. It is my meditation all the day."

And so there's an aesthetic appreciation that we often miss for Scripture. They loved the Torah. And I just think of a Werther's candy. It shouldn't be something you just crunch and devour and swallow, you suck and you just enjoy it for the longest period. So it's how sweet. As I was preparing for today's podcast, just reading some advanced notes, I thought of Alfred North Whitehead and he is a philosopher, about 100 years ago, and he made this quote that I read it 20 years ago and it's always stuck with me. He's speaking against the rise of science in his day that's coming out of the whole empirical method and whatnot... rationalism enlightenment. Anyway, here's what he says, "After you understand about the sun, and the stars and the rotation of the Earth, you may still miss the radiance of the sunset."

And so we can become so hyperfixated on the content of Scripture that we miss the beauty and the majesty of Scripture. And we miss this aesthetic appreciation for what it is. You guys know the "Inch Worm" song? You ever heard? There's like a Muppet Show... You can look it up, YouTube it, Inch Worm. It's a song...

JOSIE: Rob goes from like, deep philosophy to the "Inch Worm" song.

ROB: But it's Alfred North Whitehead in a Muppet skit.

JOSIE: How do you do this and make it make sense, Rob?

ROB: So the song goes like this, I don't know if you know the song. Anyways, so here's the lyrics, "Inchworm, inchworm, measuring the marigold..." So that's a flower.

JOSIE: He stopped singing.

ROB: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I'll save y'all. So I could play it for you on piano though. Oh, here we go, "Inchworm, inchworm, measuring the marigold / You and your arithmetic, you'll probably go far." So you can imagine this little inchworm, he's on the flower, he's just checking out this flower. Oh, yeah. And then there's a turn, it says, "Inchworm, inchworm, measuring the marigold / Seems to me you'd stop and see how beautiful they are." And so there's this idea is, we can look at Scripture, we can dissect Scripture, we can deconstruct Scripture. But can we just enjoy it? Like a Werther's candy in our mouth, and just let it, "Ah, yeah, that's so good."

So I will confess to you all, I am far more likely to lean towards the deconstructing, the taking it apart to find meaning and less apt to move towards appreciation. And Lord, rescue me from that, that I have this aesthetic appreciation of Scripture more and more, rather than simply being the teacher.

SONIA: And yet, we continue to give ourselves to the journey because we can trust Jesus. And I think knowing that, yeah, there can be overwhelming things or maybe we don't have it all figured out, but it is a journey. But we continue to give ourselves to it because we know we can trust Jesus. We want to know more of Jesus. This is why when we search out for truth, we choose to anchor to Scripture. There's this trust that continues to build.

And it's not a journey unless you journey. If you're not walking on the journey, you actually haven't started the journey. And so I hope that this space has just brought thoughts of us of our journey. And maybe we're at a place where we need to start walking in it. I loved Rob, how you talked about just reading in general from a cultural perspective, because that does have an impact on here. And yet you have these stories of these guys that are now readers, and so the journey is meant to be walked. This isn't just something that it just arrives, it is a journey, and we can continue to appreciate it as we continue to lean in knowing that we still have lots to discover. But ultimately, we trust Jesus and that continues to grow.

And I love John 1:1-5. It says, "In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God. God created everything through Him. And nothing was created except through Him. The Word gave life to everything that was created, and His life brought light to everyone. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it."

And as we continue to journey on in figuring out how we continue to anchor to Scripture, I do hope that our hearts continue to be renewed, that this journey is exciting. That it isn't dry, it's full of life for us to yet discover. And that is an opportunity and space for all that even when shift happens, we can choose to anchor to Scripture. Thanks for joining us, and we hope that you continue to lean in on this journey of Scripture.

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