New Waters S3 | Episode 6

People of Peace

“World peace” is often thought of as a far-fetched aspiration tacked on to a beauty pageant contestant’s list of hopes for the world, but does it need to be that way? When Jesus promised His followers a kind of peace that the world can’t give, what did He actually mean? For the Canadian church in particular, how do we ensure that our reputation as a peaceful people doesn’t prevent us from receiving the powerful kind of peace that Jesus offers?

In this episode, Sonia leads the New Waters cast through an inspiring conversation on what it means to be people of peace. Together they discuss not only how to become individuals but a church where people can encounter a kind of peace they have never seen before.

+ Show Notes

+ Transcript

SONIA: Welcome back to Season Three of the New Waters Podcast. I'm Sonia, and I will be leading us and hosting today's episode. When we start off today, I want us to be thinking about if you could vacation anywhere, where would it be, and why? So Alicia, where would you go, and why?

ALICIA: I would definitely go back to Hawaii. It was hands down one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. The swimming with sea turtles was just incredible, and so I would definitely go back there. I love snorkeling and being under the water, and Hawaii is a pretty incredible place to do the snorkeling.

SONIA: Nice. You can feel free to take me.

ALICIA: All right.

SONIA: That sounds like a dream. Rob, where would you go?

ROB: Well, so many places, but right now, I have it in mind to go to Scotland. I'd like to go and spend some time there. I do have a smidgen of Scottish blood in my body. My mother was a Mackintosh, and so I'd like to go and trace out some ancestry dots, see my roots, and figure out where I'm from.

SONIA: That would be cool, and just to learn more about your family and your roots. That's awesome. How about you, Josie? Where would you go?

JOSIE: Well, I've never been to Hawaii, so Alicia has tempted me a little bit. It is a place I've always wanted to go. I think, however, I would go back to a place I've been before, and that's Italy. I was able to be there for about two and a half weeks just before the pandemic, and fell in love with the country and its beauty, and the history, and the people, and the food, and the food, and the food. It's so good. So I would love to go back.

SONIA: That's awesome. Emphasis on the food.

JOSIE: Oh, so good.

SONIA: Thanks for sharing. What about you, Vijay? Where are you taking us?

VIJAY: Yeah, I would double down on Hawaii too, I think. It's a place I've never been. I've heard, like everything Alicia said is what everybody says when they've been. So, yeah, that's on the bucket list for sure.

SONIA: Hawaii for the win, hey?

JOSIE: Yeah.

VIJAY: Yeah.

ALICIA: Next year's recording will be in Hawaii.

SONIA: Yeah.

VIJAY: Well, yeah. Any Alliance churches that are looking for guest speakers, yes.

ROB: Why am I the only one who's chosen a cold wet place to go?

JOSIE: Yeah, I don't know.

VIJAY: That's what you Scots people do. Rob, I don't get it.

SONIA: Well, thanks for bringing variety, Rob. We need a bit of a balance there. For me, as I was thinking about it, I would love to go to Greece. I think, man, the views. And I love learning about Mediterranean culture, but also the foods. I'm with you, Josie, there. I think it would just be a really neat opportunity. Why are we even talking about where we're going, and why? Well, if you're just joining us this season, we're sharing with those of you who see all of life as ministry with Jesus. We're talking about many of the shifts that we have seen all around us, and looking for anchors in the sea of change. Today's anchor we will be discussing is peace. When we think about where we're going, I think, if we are aware or not, there's a sense of peace that we're looking for. We're looking to travel, to be in a place of tranquility, a place of enjoyment. But even before we dive into this topic, I want to throw out the question of, what comes to mind for you when you think of the word "peace"?

ROB: Well, I can start. Whenever I hear the word "peace," and I don't know why this is, but I think of the movie “Miss Congeniality” with Sandra Bullock in it.

SONIA: Yes.

JOSIE: That is so not what I was expecting.

ROB: They asked all of the contestants in the beauty pageant, what do they hope for. The answer for every candidate there, every person says, "... and world peace."

JOSIE: I remember that.

SONIA: That's awesome. Because, as I was thinking of that, I was thinking of that movie too. So, I mean, yeah. It's a good show.

VIJAY: Oh, I had no idea that “Miss Congeniality” made such an impact on so many lives.

ROB: It's actually a great movie. I mean, I'm not really one to consider beauty pageants a whole lot, but it is pretty funny.

VIJAY: Oh, man. I think of, yeah, I mean obviously the immediate connotation I think, "Okay, inside... Inner sense of calm, as opposed to anxiety or chaos or something." Maybe that's just because of the season we're in, my mind immediately goes there.

SONIA: Yeah. That's good.

ALICIA: I think of the idea of right relationship, and being in right relationship with those around me and the world around me.

JOSIE: I think similar to Vijay, when I think of peace, I think of just that settledness of spirit. No matter what's going on around, that sense of calm, not necessarily tranquility, but a sense of settledness, and the absence of worry.

SONIA: What's cool is hearing everyone's perspective on it, and yet you can see the commonalities of it, right? There's the absence of worry. There's this harmony in relationships. There is calm, even in the times of chaos. There also is Miss Congeniality rooting for world peace. You know, the world values peace, it really does. It craves it, and we see initiatives all over fighting to obtain peace.

JOSIE: Mm-hmm.

SONIA: One of the resources I've watched for a while now is, every year there's a Global Peace Index rate that's put out. You can check it out on visionofhumanity.org. It's created by the Institute for Economics and Peace. This is the criteria for peace: It would be societal safety and security, ongoing domestic and international conflict, and level of militarization. These are kind of the three hubs that they use to rate the country. You can all go see how Hawaii lands, or Scotland, or wherever it is you're going, before you're traveling. What I found interesting is that Canada sits at number 10 out of 163 countries.

SONIA: Now, that is remarkable, if you think. Out of 163 countries, Canada's at number 10, which is great in these areas. Yet on a personal human level, I think regardless of where you travel, we still wrestle to find peace, to know it and to remain in it. We can find many methods or practices that invite us to an acknowledgement of our need for peace. Yet they can't guarantee us to really stay in peace, to know what it is to be anchored in peace. What are your thoughts so far? Anyone tracking? Anyone going to check out Hawaii's rating there? Any thoughts so far?

JOSIE: I was just thinking maybe we should have all chosen Switzerland. Actually, as you're talking about this world index, when I initially think about peace, I think, "Okay, what does peace mean for me?" Yes, that settledness of spirit. Yes, that absence of worry. But then of course when we're looking at... There's a macro picture, a bigger picture to that too. Joking aside, what does world peace look like? Yeah, peace for me, but how does that transcend beyond the individual as well? Which I'm not sure I have the answer to that, but it got me thinking.

SONIA: Mm-hmm.

ROB: The only thought that I have at this point is more of a question: Is peace simply an absence of conflict, or is it so much more? I think oftentimes when we get into conversations of peace, particularly in the geopolitical realm, it's more a thought of, "Well, if we're just not fighting, then we have peace."

VIJAY: A ceasefire, yeah.

ROB: Yeah. Yeah.

SONIA: I think that's the importance of conversation and community. Even though our experiences and the way that we interpret peace have shaped the way we view it, it's always important to know how it is that we're defining it. Also, what does it look like? What is peace? Sometimes I think peace can just be so simple... We don't really, really know what it is, especially in times of change, especially in times of chaos. I really am so thankful that, as the world defines peace, we have good news and a greater peace. I think that's the hope that we have as followers of Jesus. Jesus says in John, chapter 14, verse 27, "Peace, I leave with you. My peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not be afraid." So what is this peace that Jesus offers us?

VIJAY: I remember reading Tim Keller's book, Generous Justice. He explained in more detail than I think that I had heard up to that point. I'd heard the biblical concept of "shalom." He gave the analogy of threads, an interwovenness of all of life. And in particular relationships... Relationship with God, relationship with self, relationship with each other. First of all, there's not a disconnection between those things. They aren't separate. He said they're not piles of threads just dropped on top of each other. There's an intentional interweaving. So not a compartmentalized or disconnected view of life, but God in everything and affecting everything.

The way we see each other, the way we see strangers, foreigners, spouses, children, friends, enemies, all of that. Then of course, Jesus giving much more flesh to that, and attacking the separation and the segmentation of saying, "Oh, we'll be interwoven with these people, but not these people." You can almost see the ministry of Jesus as saying "No." Then Paul, when he says the dividing wall of hostility in Ephesians 2, making peace between... It's like refusing to have boundaries set on that interwovenness, and people that were otherwise apart. That was really eye opening for me. Of course, he went on to apply it in the context of justice, but just in general, that was really helpful. I've never forgotten that.

SONIA: Yeah. Thanks, Vijay.

ROB: Yeah, shalom, I think for me as well is probably the operative Hebrew word that describes the biblical concept of peace. It's a multi-layered, very complex word that means so many things. But I think the idea is harmony, wholeness, order, restoration, everything coming together. The challenge with the Fall, Genesis 3, is it's disrupted and distorted, all of that. So because of the fall, we have animosity between us and God. We have animosity between us and each other at the human level. We have animosity between us and the creation itself, thorns and weeds and all of that, mosquitoes, of course... it's not in there, but I'm reading between the lines. And we have disruption within ourselves. We're not even whole people. All of that is just, is broken. Shalom is broken. So the ministry of Jesus is to help bring about that. But I also think it's eschatological, in the sense that ultimate shalom won't happen until Jesus comes back. But we can still experience that shalom now, and work towards that, and be signposts towards that great and future hope of shalom in the midst of life. I hope that our churches and my life embodies peace now as peace will be in the kingdom come.

VIJAY: I like that idea, Rob, about bringing, like you said, redemption. Yeah. It's like restoring actually the peace that we were given and meant to live in, in every part of life.

ALICIA: Even in the creation story, we see that God took this chaos that existed and brought order to it. I think even before the fall, you see that story of, as God created, He was able to bring order and peace into something that was chaotic, in the very act of creating.

VIJAY: Yeah. That's cool.

JOSIE: It's neat to think about the bigger picture idea of shalom. When, when I first think about peace, I do, I think about, "Okay, what does it look like for me as a person to have peace?" Then looking at the world in the bigger picture sense, "What does it look like for the world to have peace?" As you mention shalom, and what in fact the gospel does and what the gospel offers for world peace toward a shift in the world order, a shift in the patterns of disunity of that fabric that you were talking about, Vijay. I need to go read that book now. But that fabric that isn't woven together, and through Jesus, it can be woven together. That in Christ, we find a unity and a peace that we can't discover anywhere else.

I also think, and you just shared that passage with us, Sonia, from John 14, I love how Jesus says to us, "Do not let your hearts be troubled." Yes, there's this big picture peace, but then there's... He sees our hearts and invites us to have peace as individuals as well. Don't let your hearts be troubled. Then He gives us peace that the world isn't going to get. It's not the kind of peace that the world gives, but it's something for us individually as well, and what does that look like?

SONIA: No, and I appreciate those thoughts, and even seeing the contrast of that, right? As I hear you all speak, and as I'm holding the tension of how the world would define what peace is and what Jesus offers us, what we see is Jesus offering us His peace in the places that the world would say, "If there isn't calm and tranquility there, then peace isn't possible"... if that makes sense. Where it's like Jesus is actually greater than the chaos. But if we don't actually allow Him into those places, we're actually really just getting scraps of what we could be living in. So instead of running away, where the world would say, "Oh, no. There's conflict. There's chaos. Peace isn't possible here." Our human nature would say, "Run when there's conflict. Run when there's chaos. Be troubled. Let your hearts be troubled. Be afraid."

JOSIE: Mm-hmm.

VIJAY: Also I think that there's disruption also associated with peace. I used to feel⏤this was new for me in watching some of the events of the last little while, and the conversations around racism... Alicia, I think you made this point in one of our earlier podcasts, but I also heard, I can't remember the book I was listening to... That when some of the riots and stuff that was happening around George Floyd, and people were looking at that saying, "Well, this is wrong, and this is violent reaction, and this is not actually working." Sure, there may be parts of that that were just pure violence or whatever, but there was also this... Someone said that comes from the voice and the vantage point of those who have lived with the benefits and the comfort of the world the way it is. But for those who have been on the wrong end of that forever, they've never felt that sense of comfort.

So there's no disruption there. It's actually just saying, "It's not good. It's not okay. It's never been." Then that evolved in my mind, and some conversations for me was just kind of an enlightening moment going, "Oh, then actually the thing that I want to go, 'Oh, that's wrong. That's disruptive. That's disturbing my world,' is actually something that might be a really important essential ingredient, at least a starting point to say, 'There's no peace without a fight, and it's actually something that has to be fought for.'" Of course, Jesus demonstrates that anyways in terms of being the slain lamb. That's been new for me with this idea of peace, Sonia. Not only, like you said⏤it's possible to have it even if everything isn't peaceful⏤but actually perhaps disruption and fight is something to be initiated in order to get peace. Now, what kind of fight obviously is where things get... But that was new for me in these conversations recently.

SONIA: No, and I appreciate that perspective too about, "What's in it for me." Do you know what I mean? Where it can just be that perspective of like, "Well, if I'm not at peace, then it doesn't matter what's going on around me." Maybe that's the place where you're saying, "Maybe that's the place of disruption we step into." That really forges, that really helps us encounter, what is peace? And it's far beyond comfort, as you mentioned there. There's a greater story in it. I do like that thought of, what if the disruption, we took it and saw it from the perspective of this is training ground to grow into it. To step into more, to see more released, instead of just the inward thinking and inward of, "What's in it for me."

ROB: Yeah. It got me thinking about Canadians, and kind of our notoriety on the world scene as peacemakers. That's what we're known for, even among say the United Nations gang. This is what Canada is all about. It's interesting that historically as Canadians, the pursuit of peace in terms of our relationships with each other has been a pretty big part of our history. If I was to compare us say to the United States, if you think about the history of the United States, so much of it has been about civil war. It's been about polarization, so North-South, Republicans-Democrats, all of this is part of their history. But the history of Canada... Mark Noll wrote an interesting paper about this. He's a big historian down in the States writing about Canada.

I was fascinated by this paper. He lists the history of Canada, and essentially what he's saying in the paper is, as Canadians we've since the beginning have had to figure out how to get along. And this is why we are better at say becoming more multiethnic. We're better at religions not fighting with each other. Since the beginning, we've had to get along as Canadians. We have both the French and the English... each of those has their own major established national churches as well. It's been part of their history, and that was kind of rooted in us from the beginning, of having to figure out how to do this.

VIJAY: After we got rid of the Indigenous peoples.

ROB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm saying that as a First Nations person. I think Mark Noll would have a lot to say about that as well. But I think the point is that we've had to figure out how to deal with difference together, and still live in the same space. I don't think we've ever done that perfectly, but that's at least kind of started the trajectory and the posture of Canada from its beginnings. That's probably why, a significant reason why today we are, again, not doing it perfectly, but doing better at figuring out how to live at peace among one another. It's interesting to think about our Canadian demographic, and why it is we are different, and why we are different than Americans. That's not a statement of better or worse or whatnot, but there is a marked difference between us. You wouldn't think so, if you watched social media in the last 10 years, because it makes it seem like everything's happening in the States is happening in Canada. But if you're a historian of Canada, you go back and you say, "Oh yeah, we have a very distinct posture towards peace."

VIJAY: How do you think that affects the church? There was a local church in our area doing some interfaith kind of dialogue, and conversation events and things like that. I know certain Christians will say, "Well, that's religious pluralism. That's watering down the message. That's making everybody think all roads lead to the same place," and whatever. Yeah, how do we think about that? Is that a false dichotomy? Is it actually part of pursuing peace as the church? Because I think that's something that's in front of us right now, like you said, Rob, because we're different than a nation that was built on a monolithic kind of idea. Okay, that means it is a more pluralistic⏤we're more European in one sense than American⏤but that presents a whole host of other, potentially opportunities, but complexities. What do you guys think about that, as it relates to the church's role in bringing, or pursuing, or proclaiming a gospel of peace? Maybe that's not where you want to go in this conversation, Sonia. I don't know. It just came to mind as we were talking.

SONIA: No, I'm curious now. No, this is good. Yeah. I'm curious about that. I guess I was thinking more of, what are the disruptions within that? Do you know what I mean? Because we were talking about just these opportunities...and do we see that as a disruption? This is going to bring more chaos than peace? Maybe there's a view of that. Then there could be the other view of, isn't this what peace and harmony looks like, is learning to talk to your neighbor down the street, even if they have a different faith than you? I'm just thinking about, what are the disruptions in there that, instead of thinking of them as defeat could actually strengthen the church?

JOSIE: As I'm listening and thinking about this, my brain automatically wants to sort things into like, "Okay, what worked well with that? What's not working well with that?" Thinking about even the history of Canada. Okay. Perhaps there's some good markers of us earning or gaining a reputation of peacemaker. Yet at the same time, we've also been confronted with some awful realities recently that would indicate that our history might not be what we thought it was. So reckoning with that peace. How do we sort that out? Then to Vijay's question about, what about things like interfaith dialogue? How do we have conversations with one another where we're at right now, going back to the gospel and what we hear from Paul about the gospel always being for the other.

JOSIE: So yeah, it started with the Hebrew nation, but it's for the other. There's almost a... I guess I have a "And of course we should be having these conversations. Of course we should find ourselves in all of these spaces and places, because Jesus came for the other. So how else are we going to share that?" Yet, of course there's that other, as I want to sort things out, there's that other piece. "Okay. What are the risks of that? Yes, we need to walk into conversations with good thinking on that, and being well rooted." But I think that call to go persists, and is very strong.

VIJAY: When I feel like, when I think about my kids who are in grade school and high school, their friendship circles are very ethnically diverse, religiously diverse. They're going to become more diverse from a sexual orientation and gender standpoint, based on just trends and conversation, certainly at least even in terms of ideas, if not identity. They don't have the option of saying, "Well, I'm going to think about and envision biblical peace from I'm outside of these groups." That... These are my friends. These are my neighbours. These are the people I am immersed in and with, and will probably have deep, loving friendships with. So what does that mean from a... How does shalom work its way from the inside out like that? Because if I don't help my kids wrestle with that, it's basically... I've set up an impossible scenario for them, in terms of them thinking about their own faith in the world they live in.

ALICIA: I think we don't want peace to be contingent on simply our similarities, right?

VIJAY: Mm-hmm.

ALICIA: Peace has to be contingent also on our diversities and on our differences. You don't want kids growing up thinking that they can only be at peace with people who are the exact same as them, and believe the same things and look the same as them.

VIJAY: Totally.

ROB: Just getting back to kind of our Canadian context, I think in Canada what we've experienced in the last three or four decades is pluralism⏤the advent of pluralism, and the growth of pluralism. I was reading a book by Donald Posterski, who's kind of a Canadian sociologist. He talks about two types of pluralism, and I found his definition is really helpful. It helps us understand, what does it mean to be a follower of Jesus in the cultural context? He talks about cultural pluralism, versus ideological pluralism. Cultural pluralism is kind of the sentiment that I think every Canadian would embrace. It's this idea as, "Yeah, we have different people with different views and beliefs and whatnot, and we need to respect that. We need to listen to that. We need to love them, and sometimes that means even celebrating those differences."

That's really important, but in the last couple of decades, cultural pluralism has had an upgrade to ideological pluralism. The idea behind ideological pluralism is, yes, there's difference. But every one of those views is equally true and valid. This is the challenge... We confuse one for the other. If we believe in Jesus, the Way, the Truth and the Life, and the Prince of Peace, how do we enter into conversation and relationship, on the one hand where we're honouring the difference of the other. But on the other hand, we're still holding true to the anchor in the midst of these turbid waters that we find ourselves in? That anchor is the person of Jesus and the gospel.

JOSIE: Thank you for that, Rob. That distinction helps me as I think about it too. Cultural pluralism, ideological pluralism as the view that all perspectives or belief is equally valid. That brings a different kind of... It asks for a different response to the conversation. It asks for a different response to us, as we're walking things out. I think that's the part, like earlier on I said, do we want to be part of these things? Of course we do. Yet that's where our own rootedness needs to come in, our own abiding, our own sense of knowing the difference.

VIJAY: I guess the challenge, when you think about that distinction, which I agree, Rob, was really helpful. So then it can lead to the conclusion that, "Okay, well we embrace cultural pluralism, but we fight ideological pluralism. The way we fight it is by competing to ensure or prove that our ideas are better, and others are worse." Because we see this and think, "No, it can't be that all ideas are equally valid. They're just simply not." So then our approach has been to fight and battle in the world of ideas, and social media gives us that wonderful platform to shout in ways...

To me, I'm just like, it's not working. That's not working at all. It's actually disproving our own ideology, if you want to use that language, and it doesn't result in peace. So I think that's the question of, "Okay, if that's true and we agree with that, let's say, how does the gospel of peace permeate a culture where all ideas are treated as equal? Yet yelling about it and trying to competitively prove that yours is better than the other, and in fact just totally invalidates your gospel?"

JOSIE: Yeah. Yeah.

ROB: Well, and that's when it's done with an absence of love. Our God is love. I mean, we're to embody that in being His image bearers. Also I think, we talked about this earlier on in our conversation about postmodernism, is the importance of walking into conversations with humility. Even today, I mean I know what I believe is what I believe, but I still want to come at truth from a posture of humility, and say, "I could be wrong, and I still have so much to learn about myself and the other." I hear you. Everybody's shouting at each other across this great divide, because there's no nuance of the conversation, and there's no relationship. I think, instead of it being a debate, it has to be a dialogue. I think that that's always a helpful distinction, and how do we dialogue with people? And honestly, truly want to learn from them, rather than saying, "I'm here to win this battle. This fight is mine," kind of thing.

JOSIE: Showing up, seeking to understand.

ROB: It brings peace.

SONIA: Yeah. Josie, you mentioned just even the emphasis on our hearts. The way that we posture ourselves for peace has a greater impact on the Church of Canada. We all play a part in this. I think it's easy to sit on the sidelines and see, well, this isn't how we do it. We can learn from that, which is great, but there's also an onus on us.

JOSIE: Yes.

SONIA: How do we posture ourselves to help for the church of Canada to be known as a church of peace? Because I think even geographically here, we're sitting in different contexts. We're sitting with different experiences, different knowledge of the Church. But yet we also, because of that, we can grow to posture our hearts to flip the script here. Instead of coming at it from a defensive standpoint, what does that posture look like of coming in to listen? Don't we all want to see the Church of Canada be known for the things of who Jesus is?

JOSIE: I love that word "posture." What is our posture as individuals in our hearts being recipients of God's grace, so that we can turn around and be ambassadors of that grace and that peace to others? If we're talking what's going to bring world peace, it's got to be God's peace showing up through His people.

ROB: And not beauty pageants, right, Josie? It's just not going to do it.

JOSIE: Definitely not.

VIJAY: I feel like for me, one of the ways this kind of came home, again, sort of going back to the conversation around race and racism. Talking with a few people, even in our national office, and then friends of mine. That as a south Asian, to some degree in my family, I leapt over a generation. They talked about some Asian and south Asian families, not all, but some leapfrogged the really hard generation of having to make it in the world. My parents came as immigrants, but then I leapfrog my generation. Actually I leapfrog into, it was not difficult for me, really. I can say that growing up in Rexdale, and a multiethnic context, and opportunities were afforded to me. They said, "No. A lot of people, and Black people especially, feel that didn't happen. There was a difficulty with the next generation that came, and opportunities weren't there," or whatever.

So it came into, I have a couple friends of mine who are Black⏤my brother-in-law is and another close friend⏤we were talking... I just said, "I never asked you," because I just assumed because I didn't experience much of it growing up, that that was everyone and especially if you grew up in the GTA, okay, and my generation didn't experience it. I had never stopped to ask my friends if they had experienced it. They both said, yes. One of them said to me, "So you're telling me, you never walked into a room wondering how people in that room would respond to you because of your skin colour? I said, "No." I mean, probably because I'm just ignorant and arrogant, and I just assume people would want... I said, "Have you?"

He said, "Yes, every time, and still to this day." It just made me realize in this conversation when we talk about, what does this mean to bring peace? It's like, now is not the time for counter-perspective. Now is time to listen, and ask more questions. I found it got me into conversations I never knew I even needed to have. When you talk about a response that leads to peace? Or, Sonia, what does it mean to posture? For me, just in the area of racism and conversation, realizing there were people within my own life I had never stopped long enough to ask. And it took the conversation away from this debate about critical race theory and all of that stuff, to interpersonally what's going on in their lives.

That was really helpful and necessary for me. I'm ashamed to admit that there was just an ignorance and an apathy that kept me from that kind of thing for a long time, but it is part of what brings peace. Even they talk about, "Wow. What a relief to be able to talk about it." My brother-in-law, he had never talked about it in our family, ever. And we're a pretty open family. I thought, "How come we've never asked him this question?" Anyways, that's a specific example, I guess, kind of what we're talking about.

SONIA: Yeah. Thanks for sharing Vijay. You already see the shift that you encountered, just by taking that approach, by having that conversation to listen. That's where I'd like us to head into here in this next section. Really seeing some of the practicals of, how do we continue to make shifts in our own lives to be people of peace, but knowing also that there's a greater picture here happening? That as we make these shifts, as we posture our hearts for this, we are actually helping build the Church here in Canada to be known for the peace that Jesus offers. At this point for joining me for the conversation, we'll have Josie and Vijay and Alicia and Rob, you guys will be joining us in at the end for some final thoughts and questions. So don't take a nap, but stay with us here. You'll be hearing from them in a bit here.

As we think about these shifts, and Vijay, you just shared even the simple act of listening, and even that helping. I love even how that brings about peace within a family as well. The more that you grow open with each other, and are able to have this conversation, it shifts much broader than just our own personal lives. As we think of that, and I'm thinking as we for listeners here in your context, or if you're just joining us and thinking about, "How do I posture myself to be a person of peace?" What are some of the things that we have learned? What are some of the things that we wish we would've done sooner? Some things that can help us grow on the journey of discovering the peace that Jesus offers, knowing that this has a ripple effect within our nation...

I was just even thinking about the practicals of, in this season in our church, we all know that there's polarizing views and ideas that we are constantly reminded of. I don't think you can go too long within a day... Remember I'm in a rural context, even, and even on this scale, it doesn't take too long. Even if you just say hi to the cashier at the till, it's like something will come out. What I'm finding is the importance for myself to have more constant heart checks, in a sense of we can grow weary in this. We're like, "I don't even want to talk about it anymore. Listen, I'm just so tired of it." How do we actually stay non-defensive, when we have these views within our community? I know for us, we've been opened up again to in-person services for the past month and a half again.

There's still a bit of this awkward dance that we're playing, because we're trying to understand each other, where everyone is living in this time, and wanting to be respectful. Yet there's this natural humanity in us, that we want to stay thinking that our side is the right way. I think it can really be distracting from unity, if we continue to just focus on the wrong things, but how do we stay postured in being people of peace in that? What I have been finding helpful is just, honestly, the simple act of reminding myself that Jesus loves that person just as much as He loves me.

I know that's really simple and basic, and yet it really keeps my heart soft. Where I'm trying to look for those practices that keep my heart soft and not defensive, that keep my heart energized and not weary... are helping to bring about this... We can have a body filled with peace, who then are agents of peace within our communities. We really have the opportunity here to show that Jesus wins, that we can continue to fight for unity. We can continue to be people of peace, even in disagreements. What are the things that we're going to stay connected to, that will lead us to being anchored to peace?

VIJAY: That's good. I mean, it does really feel like as the church we are being tested or refined in the area of, what does it mean to have unity in the midst of diversity? If you start to look at, many of the New Testament letters where the writers were addressing many important issues that were going on in the church, and sometimes in, like in Corinth, super dysfunctional immoral issues. Oftentimes, what the writers were calling the church back to was a kind of unity. One of the reasons wasn't, holy living wasn't just about not sinning. It was about what that was doing to the body, and what it meant to be a body. In Corinthians, this really crazy stuff that's going on immorally is in the same book where it talks about the body. Each of you are a body, and each a part.

I think for me, I'm realizing, "Okay. If I have a view on something, and someone in my church disagrees with it, or vice versa, I'm not..."⏤maybe this is a cop-out but⏤"...it's not about me surrendering my view to their view. It's about me surrendering my conviction about this issue to my own greater conviction about unity in the body." That's what actually... But if I don't have that greater conviction, then it's really my view versus your view. I can say, "Oh, surrender to Jesus," but what is that? I think, because we have now, in Protestantism, because we have such a low view of ecclesiology, we don't really view the church being as powerful as the Bible, if I can say that.

So what that means is, "Well, this is my view, and this is what Scripture says. I don't need to surrender that view. That's the Bible. The Bible's the highest authority." It's like, "No, Jesus is the highest authority." But as Protestants, we kind of left ecclesiology with the Catholics saying, "Oh, that was bad when the Church had authority." Now, it's the Wild West. Everybody has a gun, and everybody can interpret. It is. It's like, "Hey, whatever I say..." And we have no way, there's no... For me, I've been like, wow. I didn't really realize this until I became a pastor, of how important my ecclesiology is.

JOSIE: Yes.

VIJAY: Because if that's not strong, there's... Church authority⏤we're afraid to even talk about it like that. I don't mean it from a pastoral authority. I mean it from the Body of which Jesus is the Head. Anyway, that's just coming to mind as you're talking about that.

JOSIE: Yeah. I emphatically agree. I love what you're saying about the Body, and what the Early Church was called to in the midst of their disagreement and issues. We've got disagreement and issues too, but I love Ephesians, and I love how we hear that phrase "in Christ" over and over again. But so often it's "in Christ, we together..." In Christ, as the body of Christ. In Christ, as the temple made of many living stones. It's through our unity and the diversity that has come together. Ephesians talks about this too. That is the wonder of it all, that all of us with our diverse everything have this commonality in Christ, and that as we come together and are filled by God's Spirit, that's the reflection of who God is, and His beauty and His power in the world.

So it's a powerful reminder that we have this strong, strong call to unity. I'm also reminded of John 17, Jesus' final prayer. We've talked about this in previous episodes as well. That in the garden, before he was betrayed, that's what He was praying for, was that we would experience the same kind of unity, coming together that He and the Father had. Then so that the world would know that He was sent for them and to love them. What is that we read about, and hear a little bit about what that looked like for the Corinthians? We look and say, "Yeah, they were in trouble. What about us?"

SONIA: I think this is a really important one to drill down on, not mistaking passivity for unity in relationship. Really letting go of the "sweep it under the rug" mentality, because that is actually a false unity. What God's calling us here, and I do believe that as we position ourselves for unity, that will lead us to a stronger anchor and peace for sure, but we can get so distracted from that. So it's just taking a moment, and really checking our hearts. Where's my unity level at? Let's just call it that, in a sense. In a conversation when a disagreement comes, is my opinion trumping my heart to build unity in this relationship?

VIJAY: Yeah. I don't know if this is appropriate to say, but I think I felt like... So we're part of a denomination. Being at some of our assemblies and stuff, and some of the conversations we've had around decisions we've tried to make and whatever. I have thought often, it's like, "You know what? I actually think this is impossible for us to agree on as a denomination." Because truthfully we're not a family. I know we say we are, but functionally we're not. We don't eat together. We're not in ministry together. Yeah, we're part of the same denomination, but we don't function as a church, like with 850 pastors. That's not possible. But at our local level, we are. We eat together. We're in each other's homes. We're in ministry together. We're caring for each other. We're praying for each other.

So what is impossible sometimes at a denominational level, in terms of unity and diversity, I actually think really is possible at a local level, if the local church is truly functioning like a family. If you're married, you would know this. If a hard decision comes up, or a conflict of opinion between your spouse and you, but the rest of your relationship is strong⏤not perfect, but strong⏤you'll be able to work through that. It has nothing to do with that issue. It's the context that you are a unit, you are one. If it's not, if there's other weak spots or whatever, then it's going to be really hard to work through that issue, regardless of the points or the merits of the issue itself. It makes me think of, like Sonia said, unity and diversity is much bigger than the issues, the hot buttons that we disagree on.

If we're functioning like a family, if I'm really used to breaking bread with and loving and serving alongside people I really love, then even if we totally disagree, we're going to hug it out, and have a glass of wine together after, and we will enjoy being... We're saying, "I'm not leaving this church, because I could never leave you over this." So it's not just about the issues. It's what kind of community are we? Again, but that's not automatic⏤it's possible, I think at a local level⏤it's not automatic.

I remember when we were going through "women as elders" conversation like seven or eight years ago in our church. At the time, two of my close friends in our denomination were each pastors. One of them thought one way, and their board was different. The other one thought the other way, and their board was different. They were working in unity with their board and their church, and God was using them to make a difference in the world. That just gave me a huge sense of like, "Okay, this is possible." I actually said to our church, "Hey, whatever we decide, just so you know, I'm not going anywhere, because I have seen..." And I actually referenced two other churches that I've seen have been in... "And that's okay, and we can work this out together." Those are like living examples, I think, of exactly what you talk about. It's like, "Yeah, we can do this."

JOSIE: Yes.

VIJAY: This is actually the gospel that we're working to proclaim, or one of the outcomes of it.

JOSIE: Yes. Modelling that well. How we have these conversations, how we disagree matters. Sometimes it matters more than the conversation itself.

VIJAY: Mm-hmm.

JOSIE: What is our posture toward one another? Where's my heart at in this conversation? Recognizing when we need to let things go. Recognizing when we need to call things out, and the motivation behind those things. Because we can let things go, and it might be choosing to walk away from offense. We can let things go, saying unity matters more. Or we might let things go because we don't want to disrupt the niceness, and it's going to be too hard. So we can have things look a certain way, but what is our motivation behind it? What's our posture? I think how we have these dialogues, how we have disagreement, because it's normal. We are different. There will be differences. So knowing that that's normal, expecting those kinds of conversations to happen is good. How do we have them well?

VIJAY: One of the examples that I've used with our church a couple times was when I read, it was by Craig Van Gelder. It was a book he was writing. He talked about... He grew up in rural Iowa... He said when the state would want to implement new farming techniques and equipment, the farmers were always resistant to new ideas and new ways. So the state would hire these extension agents to go into these states and work with the farmers. What extension agents eventually started to do was buy a plot of land right next to the highway that was very visible to the town. Then they would use all the new implements on that plot of land, that everyone could see driving past, whatever. Over the seasons, they would start to see, 'Wait, this guy's getting better results than us. Hey, what are you using?'"

He said, "That plot of land was called a demonstration plot. That is what the church is. It's God's demonstration plot to the rest of the world, highly visible, but showing fruit so that the rest of the world starts to go, 'Wait a second. What do they have?'" And I do think that it's almost like when people come into our little sphere, that they should feel peace and feel something that's real, that they go, "Wow. That's better than shouting it at them, or trying to convince them"⏤back to our conversation earlier, that our ideology about salvation is better than theirs⏤It's a demonstration. It's an experience that someone tastes firsthand, and then goes, "Wow. I want that."

SONIA: Mm-hmm. Even in times of disagreement, I think of AGMs, Annual General Meetings. If you don't know what those are, there's different experiences with them. But I think of that. That's in-house. This is the family. That's one area... That should be that somebody could walk off the street, come in and watch. Even if there are disagreements, we should be a church that they would be like, "Wow. I learned a lot on how to handle and navigate disagreements." Or like, "This was the most peaceful AGM I've ever experienced." I've heard that a couple of years ago, before we did ours on Zoom the last while, we had someone who had come from a different church experience. They walked out and they said, "That was it? That's how you do it?" They were ready to... They were like, "Usually we come to these"⏤and now this is a little sick, but they're like⏤"We usually come to these because it always gets heated. There's these disagreements." It's like, "No. This should be the norm."

VIJAY: The Jerry Springer factor.

SONIA: Yeah, the Jerry Springer, let's bring that back. This is a way that, even as the church, how do we come to these spaces? Yeah, there are times that it's okay to disagree. Maybe that's what our Canadian passivity needs to be reminded of.

JOSIE: Yeah.

SONIA: It's okay to disagree. Iron sharpens iron. We are safe to do this, because we're looking for Jesus' purpose. We have His love. If we're rooted for unity, really, what are we afraid of? So I think even in those spots of church ministry, what if the church of Canada was known for the most peaceful AGMs, or general meetings? What if that's how we came into them, and this was the stance? And they were calling on us in business sectors or something, "Help us navigate. How do we do conflict in our areas?"

With that said, I'd love to invite Rob and Alicia back, as you've been hearing our banter here, and just hear what your thoughts are as you're coming on. Anything you'd like to add, or share some of your thoughts here.

ALICIA: I think as you guys were talking, the one thing that stuck out to me was, when we talk about peace, just that we also have to talk about justice. Henri Nouwen has a book, "The Road to Peace." He talks about how we can't separate peace from justice. I think as we look at, what does it mean to be a church? I loved that example that the church shows the fruit, Vijay, that you were talking about, that the world wants. I think one of those things is that we can't think that it's just getting along, and not having any discord, but also that there's an active movement towards justice.

VIJAY: That's good.

ROB: I was thinking of... I was hearing the dialogue, really great dialogue, about what is peace and how do we pursue peace as churches? The thought came to mind from Ken Sande's book, "The Peacemaker." He talks about the different, the continuum of peace that can exist in relationships. He says, "Jesus calls us, of course, to be peacemakers. In the Sermon on the Mount, 'Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.'" We have a responsibility as followers of Jesus, the Prince of Peace, to be a people who pursue peace. But there's a difference between a peacemaker, and then on one side you've got what's called a peace-faker, and then on the other side you've got the peace-breaker. And each one of those sides has a set of actions that they do in order to pursue peace.

The peace-faker has escape tendencies. Their desire is to escape conflict. They sweep it under the rug, they flight, and the ultimate end of that ultimately is actually suicide. That's the ultimate escape, right? Those are peace-faking. But on the other side, you have peace-breaking. The idea of peace-breaking⏤you were talking about this earlier, Vijay⏤is this idea of assault, this idea of attack. This idea your goal is to demean or defeat the other person who's on the other side. The ultimate extreme of that is murder. But the activities of a person who's a peacemaker are much different, as followers of Jesus. Those include things like truth-telling. Those include things like forgiveness, reconciliation, restoration, negotiation, mediation, arbitration. All of those things to ultimately move us towards an actual peace.

But I think our tendency⏤and I don't know what your tendency is⏤but is kind of the fight-or-flight. We're either going to peace-fake, or we're going to peace-break. So how do we do that well as followers of Jesus within our churches, within our marriages, within our families. Ultimately even, I mean this framework works within our local government. It works within our national world. We see peace-faking and peace-breaking all the time, but how many people are actually peacemaking? I love the idea we are that plot of land that's demonstrating what this could actually look like. I think it does actually begin with me, and it begins with you, and it begins with all of us as members of the body of Christ.

VIJAY: As a pastor, I was really bad at this early on in my ministry, because I was so insecure about whether I was doing a good job. I never thought I would be a pastor. So going into it, I was legitimately contemplating the fact that I could screw this up and mess up our church. So what would happen is, if somebody came to me with something that I had done that was a mistake, either from a leadership standpoint or an interpersonal one, I would immediately get defensive. Because the last thing you want is the worst thing that you believe about yourself to be true, if you think, "Oh no, I'm failed." Or, if they came with an idea... Because often you talk about justice, Alicia, right? Often it's people who are intimately aware of, connected to injustice, or have been victims of it itself who are raising the issues within the church saying, "Hey, we need to do something about this."

Whether that's in our community, that's perpetuating even subtly injustice, or we're not doing anything about the injustice around us. Even then for me, if that wasn't on my agenda, immediately in my mind, I'm like, "Oh, I should have thought of that, or that means we're going to have to change this." I couldn't hear it. I couldn't just take it at face value. I couldn't just be peaceful about it, and say, "Oh, I'm sorry you feel that way." I couldn't do that, so I'm trying to grow in that. I realize so much of it was about my insecurity and fear of failure early on that kept me from... And I think as pastors, we're not the only ones responsible for, but we set a tone for how things happen. Truth-telling, like you said, Rob, like we set a tone. Are we receiving it? Do we have people around us who we actually encourage to do that for us? That whole, it starts with me thing. I think you're really right. I felt like it's something I'm wanting to grow in.

ROB: It's interesting how our family of origin can in some ways sway our posture either way. I came from a family of fight, and my response was flight, and I became a follower of Jesus. I think I carried that into it, and I kind of sanctified it and I whitewashed it. That my flight response was somehow more Jesus-like, and I think the church helped to say that. Let's just be kind, and let's make sure everybody's happy, and let's not talk about the real problems here... Only to discover in the more reading and getting to the Word and observing Jesus, that's not really what it means to be a peacemaker. That's a peace-faker.

SONIA: Oh, those are good thoughts. I even think of, I was having a discussion with someone just last week. I really was disagreeing with where they were going. I had two options there, as you were talking a bit about that, Rob, the peace-break or the peace-fake. I was like, "Ah, I'm just... I have two. I can see it, and it's my choice." I was like, "Hey, how do I stay a peacemaker in here?" I remember the first thing. Just in my own mind, I said, "God, just help me, give me the words." I remember just saying, "Listen, I want to understand you, but I don't want to change your mind. That's not what my role is in this. It's not about me changing your mind, but I really want to posture ourselves for, how do we continue to navigate life together, even when we can disagree on this topic?"

That's what I love, that even as we posture ourselves to be people of peace, when we fix our eyes on Jesus, when we ask Him for help, when we lean into the community around us, this is possible. Let's be known for the peace that Jesus gives, not as the world gives⏤but as Jesus gives us. Vijay, as you were sharing that story of the illustration of the plot of land, and how we can demonstrate this. Because we're saying it is possible, but it's also great to hear that. To encourage our hearts of where we are seeing it today played out, where we are being people of peace and demonstrating that, and the ripple effects it has.

VIJAY: A friend of mine was telling me about someone who was gay and came to their church, found Jesus there, got baptized, became a Jesus follower. Then her partner started attending, and they loved the church, joined a small group. My friend was the pastor. He said the couple who was leading the small group was a couple sort of in their late 50s, and had been Christians for a long time. They didn't even know how they felt about this whole thing. "What do we do? How do we... They're a part of our home group. They love it. They're there all the time." He said, "We just kind of walked alongside this older couple who were the home group leaders." He said, "What was so beautiful was, over time I just saw them..." The guy of the couple, he was a cop. He was kind of a tough, big guy. He said, "He's in my office in tears, just crying over this couple. Wanting them to know the love of Jesus together." The other girl was not a Jesus follower yet.

He said, "I saw their shift from, 'Oh, how do we resolve this tension that we might feel about their lifestyle or whatever,' with, 'How do we love them?' And they really began to love them. Then they wanted to get married, and they said, 'Hey, we'd like to get married.' They said, 'Well, actually we don't do gay marriage.' They said, 'Oh, you should have told us that before,' or whatever." My friend said to the one girl who had become a Jesus follower, "So if I told you that when you first came, she's like, 'Yeah, yeah, nevermind. Nevermind I said that. I would have never met Jesus. I would have left too soon. So that's okay.'" He said, "You know, what was beautiful was the whole home group loved them, stayed with them. They said, 'Well, we're not going to come to the church anymore, but we're going to keep going to the home group. Because we know the home group doesn't think like that.'"

He's like, "Well, okay, whatever you decide." They did. They continued to walk. Now unfortunately the couple split up, so the one doesn't go to the church anymore. But the one who's a Jesus follower, she's still there. I think what I loved about that was just that it was a story of, yeah, it shows, like you said, Rob, the tensions between what you could choose, whether peace-faking or peace-breaking, either in that situation. They chose something different, which was, yes, loving, faithfully walking, speaking the truth, having conversation, agreeing to disagree. Inviting the community to embrace that messy middle, and discipleship of those leaders looking like that.

That the primary issue isn't, how do we get these leaders to have this awkward conversation? How do we help them walk with these people, who are clearly trying to get closer to Jesus and His church? It was just an encouragement to me. I'm like, oh, that's what it looks like. It doesn't mean, there's no management of the outcomes and just trying to control the outcomes. There is this faithful walking. I was like, that's true peacemaking. You leave to Jesus what is Jesus. Anyways, that was an encouragement to me.

SONIA: Yeah. Does anyone else have a story of where you were convicted of faking or breaking, and what happened in that? I'm going to piggyback off Rob, just the helpful grid you've kind of left us with the peace-break or peace-fake or peace-make. Where have you seen this played out?

ROB: In the church, we often talk about the disharmony between the church and culture, or the disharmony within ourselves, but we often peace-fake the conversation of the disharmony between us and God's creation. What I mean by that is we ignore oftentimes in our conversations, particularly in Alberta, calling it as it is in Alberta, the conversation about climate, about environment. We would say that, I think oftentimes that it's we de-spiritualize that conversation. As if to say that we should only look for shalom among relationships, human relationships, but really should we look for shalom within the environment and within our climate? I think within evangelicalism, particularly dispensational theology... for our listeners, that just means the idea of dividing history up into these parts. We're in this dispensation now, Behave this way. We'll be in another dispensation of history later when Jesus returns, and then you behave that way. I think within our theology, there's this tendency for us to say, "It's all going to burn anyway, and Jesus is going to make a new one. So who cares about the harmony with creation now?" I would hope and I would pray that our conversation in the church would include that. This is biblical, so don't call me woke. Don't get all down on me about the environment and all of that. Why am I talking about this? What have I been reading? No, I mean this is actually a biblical conversation, that God created the creation. It's good. He loves the creation.

The creation has been disrupted and distorted by the Fall, because the stewards of creation decided to turn their backs on God. We are getting more and more distorted in our care for the creation. Anyway, I just throw that conversation out there. You asked the question, what are examples of practices of how we can pursue shalom in our day? I say, let's pursue shalom with people, but let's pursue shalom with creation. Everybody, please wash your laundry in cold water, for crying out loud. Find a way that we can do that. Anyway, I'm throwing that out there, but I just think it's a conversation that needs to be had within the church as well.

JOSIE: I agree with everything you just said. The piece that stands out to me is that, when we talk about that kind of shalom, it might create disagreement in the interpersonal conversation. There will be times for us to rock the boat. There are times to create disruption. There are times to call things out, and to point to a better way in relationship, because it's going to matter in the bigger picture. So doing that matters. Yeah, so thanks for saying something.

SONIA: Yeah. What I love about your point there too, Rob, is it expands the way that we view peace. Not just interpersonally, just within our own context, but it's looking at the environment as well. What it does for us is enlarge the depth of knowledge that we can have with peace as well. Where it's like, "Oh, okay, maybe I have this down here, but what about that area?" Where have we set limitations on what we can bring peace to? I think it just gives us an opportunity to expand our knowledge in that and our practices for that.

ROB: We need to build more tiny houses, right?

ALICIA: Yeah.

ROB: Boom. Boom.

ALICIA: It's all about the tiny houses.

ROB: Shalom.

VIJAY: I think too, talking about our kids, to give our kids... Because they're growing up with the awareness of residential schools, the awareness of climate change, the awareness... If we keep telling them, "Oh, the gospel has nothing to do with that." Or even if we don't say that, we live that way, and the church has nothing to do with that, we're creating this false dichotomy and false crisis of faith in their own lives. Some of it, I'll be honest, I look at all this and I'm going, "Oh, my gosh." I agree with you, Rob. But I'm not doing anything about that as a corporate, like as a church. I'm trying to individually do it. I'm doing my part in terms of reducing... My wife's making us eat less beef, which I'm not really happy about, but she's like about the footprint and all that stuff. Okay, good.

But I think, "Oh, I can't fix..." But we're raising the next generation. We're multiplying the work of Jesus in them. They may do something with regard to climate, with regard to Indigenous peoples, with regard to race relations. So are we giving them a wide berth of what the creation mandate was, as you said? God's redemptive restorative work of shalom in every aspect, so that they will think that, "Yeah, okay. This is totally what it means to express my faith, and I'm not having to choose." That's ridiculous, that we would set up a scenario where they would feel like they had to choose between those things.

ROB: Yeah, and can we frame it as a better story. The story right now, the common story is there's an oppressor and there are victims, and we've got to right that. Whereas the better story is this beautiful picture of harmony and creation being right. The restoration of all things, and us in harmony with each other and with creation and with God, and living together. I just think it's a... I want to teach a more compelling story, a more beautiful story that I think is going to move us towards shalom. I think if it's only about power... I'm not denying that it's about power, but if it's only about power, then that ultimately just leads to more disruption. There's more to the story for a follower of Jesus, and there's a better why. It's a better story. It's a more beautiful story.

VIJAY: Yeah. That's good.

SONIA: I want to leave you with this. As we continue to ponder what it looks like to have peace be an anchor in our lives, Philippians 4:6–9 says, "Don't worry about anything. Instead, pray about everything. Tell God what you need, and thank Him for all He has done. Then you will experience God's peace, which exceeds anything we can understand. His peace will guard your hearts and minds as you live in Christ Jesus. Now dear brothers and sisters, one final thing. Fix your thoughts on what is true and honourable and right, and pure and lovely and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise. Keep putting into practice all you learned and receive from Me, everything you heard from Me and saw Me doing. Then the God of peace will be with you." May we continue to know, receive and be anchored to God's peace, and thanks again for joining us. We look forward to having you join us in our next episode.

 

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